My 7th level party just killed a young adult dragon!

[Holy Bovine]

Hmm.

It WASN'T the spell that killed it? Maybe i misread the part where the wizard flew, then cast Polymorph Other.

Should I paraphrase the original post that said "(the outcome of the fight) was the most anti-climactic thing (he's) ever seen."

So I insinuate that if he doesn't want an instant-kill spell causing a decrease in the fun and heroic feeling of his game play, it should be removed.

And i get attacked.
Again.
What a surprise.

So you're not surprised then? Why do you post inflamatory things then? For a guy so set against trolls you sure seem good at it.

 

[reapersaurus]

Why do you post inflamatory things then? For a guy so set against trolls you sure seem good at it.

Holy crap, Holy Bovine, would you get OFF the troll-kick?

Agreeing with someone in the Meta board that Trolls Suck is NOT trolling.
Saying I think high level mages are overpowered and that sneak attack is too strong if allowed more than one a round is NOT trolling.

That's my serious belief in the type of game I prefer to play.

I will quote my first post: "Yet another reason why NOT to allow Polymorph Other in a campaign."
THAT'S inflammatory?

I hate that frigging spell, and I have thought it was the stupidest idea for a spell going back to 2E.

It's not like I'm pushing hot buttons with disliking PO.
I'm sure MANY people don't like that spell.
I know for a FACT that many people dislike what a botch-job WotC has done on explaining the spell.

What I wasn't surprised about is that people around here would be unable to handle someone with a different idea of the way of playing 3E than they do, and would resort to personal attacks.
If anything they should be explaining how PO is such a good spell that it SHOULD be included in a campaign, to convince me of the error of my mis-informed ways.

 

[reapersaurus]

I don't buy the notion that a Dragon would just automatically know about the lethality of spellcasters.

How would it know? It hatches and goes off on its own. It certainly hasn't got a formal education. And perhaps the first time it has the chance to learn about the lethality of spellcasters, it is too late.

Which brings up a whole different question - just where DOES a dragon get its knowledge?

I don't know.
Where do adventurers get their ENCYCLOPEDIC knowledge of all things monster-like?

The rationale usually given is:
Adventurers are in the business of adventuring, so they would know more about monsters than most people, and that most monsters' existence is well-known, even to commoners.

By extension, if a dragon's main predators are adventurers, wouldn't you think the common types of attacks that adventurers could do would be COMMON knowledge to dragons?

On that line of reasoning, I'm surprised there aren't quite a few dragons that learn all about adventurers and go around killing THEM off relentlessly.

"For the Experience!!"

 

[clockworkjoe]

By extension, if a dragon's main predators are adventurers, wouldn't you think the common types of attacks that adventurers could do would be COMMON knowledge to dragons?

learn from what? Dragons aren't social creatures. They don't have dragon taverns, where they learn dragon rumors and dragon common knowledge from dragon drunks that happen to dragon adventure hooks from their dragon dungeon master.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Wow, that is anticlimatic. It could have some serious repurcusions that would be interesting....

"Did you hear, that mage over there took down a dragon with a single spell....surely he can deal with the Balor of the southern lands that have enslaved the human kingdom of Neralla."

My party may be fighting an adult green dragon sometime soon. I plan to play him a little reckless at first, then bring out the big attacks (although if the party deals significant damage to him, I'll have him use his breath weapon on them as he runs away). My party doesn't have polymorph other, so we'll see how the battle goes .

 

[James McMurray]

Reapersaurus:

Maybe your PCs have encyclopedic knowledge pf monsters, mine sure don't. You see, I have players who can seperate their knowledge from that of their characters. That mens that I as DM get to do the same, having more logical reactions from my dragons because of it.

 

[Wolfspider]

Oops! Wrong thread!

 

[Frostmarrow]

A young adult black dragon is Cr 8. You have 4 characters of 7th level. Seems like a good encounter with the expected outcome to me.

 

[WizarDru]

Plus, without further details, this actually should have been the expected result. If the players had no other large encounters, they would have been more likely to use a larger number of their resources while fighting the dragon. If the encounter was easier because the dragon used sub-optimal tactics, the EL should be modified, not the Dragon's CR.

Polymorph Other is a powerful spell, no question. But so are many spells. At this same level you can get Phantasmal Killer and Ice Storm. The dragon had both a FORT save and Spell Resistance. It rolled badly. It happens. This doesn't make the spell unbalanced, necessarily.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Well, if nothing else this thread has given me some food for thought regarding the tactics, knowledge, motivation and puissant skill at arms of dragons, based on age and CR.

Take, for example, a Young black dragon...these things have an average of 85 hp, some decent abilities, and a CR of 4. If you play this dragon using "sound tactics," it will wipe the floor with a 3rd-4th level party. But take into account the dragon's Age, Intelligence, and Wisdom, and you've got a slightly less-formidable foe--perhaps a little overconfident. Like Khan, it might display evidence of two-dimensional thinking..."intelligent but not experienced."

In short, just as PCs should be able to draw a distinct line between what they know and what their characters know, so should the DM put himself in the monster's shoes and play them like a character, not a master tactician, IMO.

But everyone has their own style...I'm not knocking it.

As for the one-shot-kill, well..."sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you." Any game based on dice will have lucky shots. e.g. 1st level fighter meets Great Wyrm. Hacks ineffectually at the wyrm's leg. Great Wyrm puts its head down there and says, "I'm going to eat you now, puny human." 1st level fighter makes last-ditch effort, rolls two 20s in a row, rams his sword through wyrm's eye into its brain: instant death. Not likely, but possible.

Again, what's good for the players should be good enough for the monsters. Instant death is a fact of D&D...it happens. DMs should always be ready for their "pet monsters" to die.

And...remove Polymorph Other? Come on...if you don't like the WotC explanation then make up your own. But wizards turning their foes into toads or newts ("I got better...") is a staple of fantasy and folklore.