My 7th level party just killed a young adult dragon!

[reapersaurus]

Reapersaurus: Dragons are smarter than the PCs? How do you figure? (snip)

I think maybe you should actually read the stats of dragons instead of just pulling random statements out of the air like that. Then perhaps you'd understand their actual abilities instead of assuming that dragons can polymorph, are higher intelligence than high level wizards, and are otherwise unbeatable.

James, _I_ think you should read what i wrote again.
You are begining to sound cartoonish.
Here, I'll quote myself so you don't have to scroll and hurt your finger. LOL

It surprises me when people assume that 'their' players are the only beings that could come up with stuff.
If you figure that there's a whole big world out there, you can guarantee that whatever your PC thinks up, others have done it before you, and therefore a monster is very likely to do these nasty PC-tricks as well.

That's not even mentioning the monsters that are SMARTER than PC's.
And more devious.

Now, assuming you read it this time, you'll see i never mentioned dragons being smarter than the party wizard.
I said that there are monsters that are smarter than the party. You know... those things in worlds OTHER than dragons.
Do you think the PC's are the smartest creatures on your world?

That they are the first to do these things they do?
And why do you think that just because there's a wizard that is smart in the party, that suddenly the party as a whole is super-smart? Like that INT score transfers to everything they do as a party, and all members.
And since when is high INT score required to be devious and crafty, or simply know what the heck to do with your own body?

It seems that you are beginning to paint dragons with a ridiculous cardboard-cutout of a monster's personality.

Just because they are typically loners by nature in their big, dark treasure-laden den, doesn't mean that they are restricted to just that behavior.
I can easily picture dragons being somewhat social in their youth, especially since they can be killed by many things until they grow big and strong.
They would have territorial battles, coming up against bigger and stronger dragons, learning their limits, making friend and enemy dragons and other creatures... just like everything else does.

And their learning wouldn't stop there - i thought dragons were notorious for taking humans and liking stories told.
Trust me, if a dragon was curious about adventurers (and only a suicidal one wouldn't), they'd know the stuff they could do soon enough.

And it's funny that you are criticising me for thinking that dragons can turn to human form, when every single one of them can, either by innate spell ability, or by spells as they grow.

It's all well and good to discuss dragons, but let's keep the jabs and cuts to a nice manageable level, agreed?

 

[Selfloathing]

Fudge.

It's not just for breakfast any more.

You eat fudge for breakfast?

 

[Dieter]

Well, 5 pages! I'm impressed and a bit surprised.

I suppose it's easy to armchair quarterback the situation, pondering, "Well, I would have done it this way or that way."

While I was moderately irritated by the anti-climactic ending to the battle, I'd say the dragon did the best it could with what limited resources it had to work with. Darkness may have been the better course of action, but if you knew my group, a devastating initial attack has more of an effect than any sort of subterfugial offense. I had about 2 rounds of game time to figure out what I was going to do with the hand I was dealt. Weighing all possible avenues of attack based on my one partial/surprise action...the breath weapon looked like the winner.

 

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

What a pleasant surprise this thread is! I opened the thread expectin to read sentiments like "You probably didn't roleplay the dragon right.", "Did you remember this or that power" and stuff like that.

Hubris, irony or poetic justice?

 

[James McMurray]

Victim: I agree. Perhaps not on the greater spell focus feat, because I enjoy a higher powered game than most, but definitely on your other points.

Reapersaurus: I'M beginning to sound cartoonish? You yourself seem to be a cardboard cut-out of a personality: "Defend dragons at all costs." Perhaps we could refrain from the personal attacks and try to maintain this as a discussion board?

I apologize if I misread your post. I assumed that since the entire thread was about dragons, that when you mentioned monsters, you were referring to dragons. I think its a logical conclusion. However, if we're going to talk semantics here, than what you actully said was that all monsters ar smarter than PCs. If you'd wanted to say some, you should have said "some monsters" instead "the monsters".

I never said or even insinuated that the wizard's high int should transfert o the party. But in some ways it should. If a character in the party has a 25 int, I'm pretty certain the player doesn't. The best way to simulate that apart from the DM giving clues left and right, is to allow players to collaborate on deciding intelligent tactics. Then those characters who would be likely to follow the wizard's advice can follow those tactics, which can be considered to have come from the wizard.

Again, you keep bringing up that I think dragons don't know what to do with their bodies. I've said on several occasions that I agree with you that dragons should know how best to use their abilities. I also agree that it is possible to be cunning. However, int he given situation (the black dragon breathing on the surprise round) to his mind that was probably very cunning. Popping out of a lake and killing your foes is devious as all get-out. Of course, a more intelligent dragon would have realized that his breath isn't gauranteed to kill them and maybe tried something else.

Well, I guess we'll have to agree that we see dragons' childhoods in different lights. Although I can see your situation occuring, I don't think its the norm.

As for every single dragon being able to turn to human form: that's when they're older than this dragon was. It also assumes that you allow them to take the "over-powered" polymorph spells. So yes, dragons can take human form and learn about humans. But as I said, not until they're old age or higher for most breeds. That's a bit past the "youg dragons know about humans" stage.

It seems to me that you are allowing dragons an ability that you won't allow party members. For disguise purposes, polymorph other is the only way to go. Polymorph self can work, but it doesn't last nearly long enough for true socialization in my opinion.

As soon as you refrain from calling me pathetic and cartoonish, I'll be mor than happy to refrain from my own jibes. But until then, I'm entitled to defend myself. If you want to be seen as carrying on a discussion, perhaps you should try to avoid the personal attacks as well?

Dieter: You chose correctly. The only thing better for the dragon to have done would have been to cast darkness to himself and stay under, then the next round come out with a breath. Of course, with only 2 rounds to think about it, I would have done exactly the same thing. You're right in that its easier to sit back afterwards and criticise. I'd personaly love to play in some of your detractors' games and see how they go when they're pressed for time.

No matter how intelligent a dragon may be, nor how in tune with his abailties, as long as he's played by a DM, he'll never be as good at using his abilities as the players. They've had much more practice using their stats and abilities. the only way to combat that is to think ahead, try to develope a good strategy beforehand, and then watch it fall apart when the players do the unexpected

 

[Wolfspider]

No matter how intelligent a dragon may be, nor how in tune with his abailties, as long as he's played by a DM, he'll never be as good at using his abilities as the players. They've had much more practice using their stats and abilities. the only way to combat that is to think ahead, try to develope a good strategy beforehand, and then watch it fall apart when the players do the unexpected

Hmmmm...interesting point. And I tend to agree that the DM can be at a certain disadvantage when player a dragon (or any monster, for that matter). That's why we need a good forum for discussing draconic strategy. The more people who are analyzing the tactics of a dragon, the better it will be at challenging the players. Just look at how many possibilities have come from these two dragon threads alone! Why, if you had had access to this pool of devious thoughts before you ran the encounter, things may have turned out quite differently, eh, Mr. McMurray?

 

[Tewligan]

Just a quick comment on the given intelligence scores of dragons. Remember that the stats given in the MM are average - some could have lower INT (the dead ones), and some could have higher (the ones who outsmart parties and fully utilize their available resources.)

 

[James McMurray]

Wolfspider: That's true. So, perhaps I should do some reading in the B.A.D.D. thread after all. Unless of course, I'm banned from there?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Half you guys seem to want Dragons to be an invulnerable all knowing gods of the world. Sure play them tough, but don't try to make them more than they are.

Flexor the Mighty!
President of the Dragon head collectors society.

 

[Wolfspider]

Half you guys seem to want Dragons to be an invulnerable all knowing gods of the world.

How true! Thank goodness none of those people are members of B.A.D.D.