My 7th level party just killed a young adult dragon!

[reapersaurus]

It wasn't poor planning that led to failure, just Dame Fortune making me her whipping boy.

Just found this thread again.

Actually, it looks like with the mage that's in your party, and with 3E rules the way they are, that mage had a 50% chance of Polymorphing your big baddie, EVEN in his lair, after getting ambushed!

When are people going to actively realize that mages are not weak, and should NEVER be underestimated?
That almost everything can be taken, given one, 2, or 3 spells and average rolls?

Or is asking that simple question being troll-like?

Seems to ME that if the monsters would be attacking based on greatest likelihood of threat... than the monster would ignore everyone and just concentrate on the mages till they were dead, dead, dead.

 

[Altalazar]

Yes, mages can get lucky and kill you. But again, does a young dragon necessarily know this? Where would it have learned? Lizards don't teach their young...

 

[reapersaurus]

Take, for example, a Young black dragon...these things have an average of 85 hp, some decent abilities, and a CR of 4. If you play this dragon using "sound tactics," it will wipe the floor with a 3rd-4th level party. But take into account the dragon's Age, Intelligence, and Wisdom, and you've got a slightly less-formidable foe--perhaps a little overconfident. Like Khan, it might display evidence of two-dimensional thinking..."intelligent but not experienced."

And...remove Polymorph Other? Come on...if you don't like the WotC explanation then make up your own. But wizards turning their foes into toads or newts ("I got better...") is a staple of fantasy and folklore.

When i think of wizards in fantasy, I DON'T think of them just pointing a wand or finger at the big bad guy and turning him into a newt.

That was Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

And I don;t think it takes a lot of Int and common sense (Wis)(on the dragon's part) to play a dragon that uses his abilities well.
Playing a dragon smart would be having him know everything.
I'd guesstimate that a 10 Int would let a dragon know what the dangerous parts of parties that it encounters would be, and the common tactics (haste, invis, fly, charging) that adventurers would use agianst it.
And it's only common sense that a dragon would know EXACTLY what ITS powers were, and EXACTLY the best way to use them.
It lives with those powers every day of its life, and it is in a more combatative way of life than almost all other types of creatures.
Why WOULDN'T it learn to use its abilities to their utmost?

 

[reapersaurus]

Yes, mages can get lucky and kill you. But again, does a young dragon necessarily know this? Where would it have learned? Lizards don't teach their young...

I don;t agree with this extreme view of creatures and learning life's lessons.

I'm not sure, but i think that even a YOUNG dragon has been fighting for its survival for over TEN years.
That's not exactly fresh out of the box.
Some adventurers get to be 10th level before 10 years of fighting for their lives goes by.

Your approach that young dragons are basically bubble-children who know nothing of the world until the parrty comes by to teach em a lesson about how darned powerful those mages in 3E can be by laying a true smacking down on those ignorant loner-dragons is a bit far-fetched to me.

 

[James McMurray]

I'm not sure, but i think that even a YOUNG dragon has been fighting for its survival for over TEN years.

Fighting for its survival? Against what? Either one camp is right, and dragons rear their young, in which case it would be the parents doing the fighting, or the other group is right, and dragon get hurled out of the nest. Even if they get hrled out of the nest, I would think that the last thing most predators would be doing is attacking dragons. Even if they were, there aren't a lot of things out there that would give a young dragon a good enough fight to teach it how to use each and every one of its abilities perfectly. If something is that strong, I think the dragon would be more inclined to fly away.

Plus, what this has to do with learning how humans fight is beyond me, unless its your contention that dragons get visited by adventurers once every 3 months or so.

When i think of wizards in fantasy, I DON'T think of them just pointing a wand or finger at the big bad guy and turning him into a newt.

Merlin threatened to turn people into frogs. Prince Charming was turned into a frog. Circe turned men into pigs. Witches of legend have long been thought to turn people into animals. I guess those aren't examples of "wizards in fantasy."

Seems to ME that if the monsters would be attacking based on greatest likelihood of threat... than the monster would ignore everyone and just concentrate on the mages till they were dead, dead, dead.

That's all well and good, but then the party's cleric, who I'm sure we'lla ll agree can't be taken lightly, will take you out with his divine powered, bull's strengthing, divine favored beat-stick. Or perhaps the party rogue will use you attacking the wizard to get in some extremely hurtful sneak attacks. Or maybe the party's fighter will use his keen sword and improved critical to put a serious hurt on you.

Yes, wizards are powerful. yes, you cannot afford to underestimate them. But the same can be said for almost every class. I'd be very interested to hear what spells, feats, items, etc. you'd disallow in your games.

 

[reapersaurus]

I'd be very interested to hear what spells, feats, items, etc. you'd disallow in your games.

This isn't the place, James.
Let's put it this way: you can guarantee i wouldn't have a 11th level party have a Staff of the Magi, a Holy Avenger, an artifact, and all that other stuff (including their pick of non-core spells, etc.)

As for wizards in fantasy, i was stating that my idea of fantasy gaming does not include mages that can turn people to frogs, and i don't play in a Prince Charming world, or one with Merlin for that matter.
I didn't say they don't exist in folklore, or some fantasy references.

As for the dragon, I can't believe you are considering them that stupid.
Like they can't PRACTICE?
"Gee, I never knew i had blindsight! What a shocker."

Do they get served breakfast in bed their whole lives?
No, they have to scrap and claw for food and survival just like everything else in life.
D&D always has something that can kick anything's butt, at all levels of life.
Are you suggesting that dragons, unique to all kinds of life in D&D, doesn't have to struggle and get in fights or even LEARN?

I thought that dragons could turn into human form.
That would probably be a pretty good idea to learn about these pesky humans they've heard about in their cave of solitude from year 1 of their lives on.

James, do you seriously share Altazar's approach to dragons?

 

[Wolfspider]

Altazar's approach to dragons?!?

What manner of abomination is this?

 

[James McMurray]

Reapersaurus: Obviously you don't play a high-powered game like I do. That doesn't make my way right or your way wrong, it just makes them different. As for the artifacts, the Staff is already gone, the party will either be dead or without the amulet next game, and the Holy Avenger truly isn't as powerful as you seem to think it is. Apart from holy and an extra plus 1, the weapon has been no better than the original incarnation of it. SR15 is a joke at this level, and it takes him forever to successfully dispel things with it.

Of course dragons can practice. I never argued that point. My point was that them being able to practice their own abilities would not give them knowledge about the abilities of humans.

Of course dragons struggle and fight at times. But I doubt their lives are as difficult as that of your average forest denizen. I bet they have to fight about as often as your average Wolf would have to fight in our world. Every now and then you may have to drive something off from your food, or leave with what you can carry, but you don't get into a lot of life or death fights every day of your life, as you seem to believe.

I thought that dragons could turn into human form.

You thought wrong, plain and simple.

Unless a dragon is of the right species and age, they cannot. In fact, only gold, bronze, and silver dragons ever gain the ability naturally, and they're not exactly your standard anti-human dragon races.

Of course, once they hit around Old age category, they get high enough level as sorcerors to be able to learn the polymorph spells. But those are too powerful and should be banned right? Unless of course you contend that they should be allowed for dragons but noone else?

I would say I'm much closer to Altazar's view than you are. I certainly don't think that dragons can be snuck up on in their sleep (unless you're a very high level rogue and don't get within their blindsight radius. I do however agree with him that not every dragon is going to know about how humans fight and live.

 

[Tewligan]

On that line of reasoning, I'm surprised there aren't quite a few dragons that learn all about adventurers and go around killing THEM off relentlessly.
[END QUOTE]
Oh sweet biscuits, that gives me such an idea for an adventure once my players hit a high enough level! And it certainly makes sense - dragons know they aren't popular, and any intelligent dragon worth his trove should have some informants in the civilized world. It would certainly be a shame if any bold adventurers in the region with dreams of glory should meet an untimely death before they're powerful enough to be a thorn in someone's scaly side... Nice work, Reapersaurus!
However, I think they won't meet their nemesis himself until they're pretty high level - I'm also of the school of thought that dragons should be horrific, cunning, good-lord-don't-underestimate-them mofos. That doesn't mean the party won't be harassed by minions earlier in their careers, though. Heh heh...

 

[Dieter]

In the dragon's defense...had it seen the flying wizard overhead, I wouldn't have used the breath weapon as its first attack. But since it was submerged until moments before combat ensued, it had no idea that there was a flying halfling wizard over it ready to strike.

I based its attack on the premise that it saw multiple threats and it's breath weapon was the best offense it could muster in a suprise attack action.