My answer to Speak Language: Knowledge [Culture] subtree

Gez

First Post
An idea I just had while rewriting and rewriting my house rules.

Basically, you introduce a knowledge subtree: Knowledge [Culture]. For example, you have:
Knowledge [Culture] (Western Heartlands)
Knowledge [Culture] (Valenar Elves)
Knowledge [Culture] (Rock Gnome)
etc.

The exact skills depends on your campaign setting, of course -- if you play in the Forgotten Realms, you will have KC: Western Heartlands, but you won't have KC: Valenar Elves. If in your homebrew, there are three distinct cultures for rock gnomes, you'll have one KC skill for each.

Knowledge [Culture] (Foobarian) is always a class skill for any Foobarian PC, regardless of the class. Otherwise, they are knowledge skills like all others -- if a class has all Knowledge skills as class skills, then the KC skills are class skills too.

A character gets 2 ranks in his own culture at creation, and a number of bonus skill points equal to 2 plus his Int modifier to place in KC skills (to max out his knowledge of his own culture, or to put in other culture knowledges, as he wishes).

When you have one rank in a KC skill, you know enough of the language, accent, and mannerism of that culture for basic conversations.
With two ranks, you know enough of language, customs, clothing styles, rough political, geographical, religious, and other popular references to live a simple day-to-day life without sticking out of the crowd.
With three ranks, you become more comfortable with all these aspects. You know several proverbs, recipes, songs, and other popular references.
With four ranks, you know as much as the average smart, inquisitive young adult raised in that culture.
With five ranks you know enough to get a synergy bonus to a single skill that is especially important for said culture (Profession: Cooking for KC: Hairfoot Halfling, Spellcraft for KC: Ivory Tower Elves, Climb for KC: Mountain Orcs, whatever suits your setting).

You'd also get a synergy bonus to social skills (Diplomacy, Gather Informations, etc.) when dealing with the appropriate culture.

With more and more ranks, you get a greater and greater insight into that culture.

A very high rank (10 or 15, for example) could allow to bypass racial or cultural requirements for a prestige class. For example, if you have 10 ranks in Knowledge [Culture] Shield Dwarves, you'll probably be able to get accepted into the ranks of the Dwarven Defenders. "He may be born Human, but he has proved his heart is Dwarven, and he is worthy of being one of ours!" Things like that.
Maybe with 15 ranks in KC: High Elves, you'll be able to figure out by yourself the secret techniques of the Arcane Archer.

And, finally, the Speak Language pseudoskill disappears. As well as the "starting languages, bonus languages" things. Instead, you use your bonus KC skill points to get one rank or more in the appropriate KC skills.
 

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Wow. Very very nice. That solves several problems at once and doesn't really introduce any new rules or mechanics. And if, as a player, you want to ignore it, just spend one rank in each culture/language you want and it works just like before.

I'm officially not worthy!

:D
 

I like it a lot like JimAde said it get rid of problems without bringing up any new questions.

Two problems, the culture to how well you speak that language is a little limited going up to 5, I would add in a few more tiers and space them out, one skill point isn't much extra knowlege but gives a lot in this situation.

Otherwise it is superb. Bookmarking now.
 

Ferret said:
I like it a lot like JimAde said it get rid of problems without bringing up any new questions.

Two problems, the culture to how well you speak that language is a little limited going up to 5, I would add in a few more tiers and space them out, one skill point isn't much extra knowlege but gives a lot in this situation.

Otherwise it is superb. Bookmarking now.
But that first rank has to give you working knowledge of the language to keep it compatible with the existing system. With the RAW you can spend a single rank and be fluent in a language. But it makes no provision for actually understanding the culture that the language came from.

The other uses seemed like off-the-cuff suggestions that would take play testing to hammer out. How many ranks should you require to allow access to a racial PrC? I certainly don't know, but 10 seems like a significant investment. GMs would have to watch out for Ogre PCs trying to take Gnome Giant Killer levels, I suppose, but... :)

The 5 ranks for a cultural skill synergy is cool but, again, would take some play testing.
 

Good work. Consider this my official declaration of intent to purloin this material for private use. :D

I also like the idea of one point being enough to get by with a language, but spending more introduces you to the nuances. The hardest part of learning a language is the slang, which is a product of the culture. If you don't understand the culture, the slang is meaningless to you. I think 5 ranks to academic fluency is reasonable.
 



One thing I considered about this system was that you probably take some form of negative to Bluff, Disguise, etc. when you have 1 or fewer ranks if you're trying to convince somebody that you're from a particular culture.

The image that pops to mind is Harrison Ford in Indiana Jones: Raiders of the Lost Ark... he impersonates a German officer at one point in the movie, but... probably didn't do too well on his Bluff check due to his non-German accent and lack of better knowledge of the culture.

As far as compliments on the system, I added it into my campaign design about thirty seconds after I saw it... two-thirds of my players (one of which is a DM) like it as well, but one (who has been nothing but a complete annoyance since the beginning whenever I tried a variant rule) thought it was 'too complicated'. I don't agree with him in the least.

Thanks for the ideas.

Oh, one other thing I thought of: To make it the equivilent of the bonus languages, at first level you should get 2 x Int modifier, not 2 + Int modifier.
 
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It's extremely similar to the MERP language system, and indirectly the Rolemaster one.

I have a couple of issues with it. For example rank 1 is completely adequate for most adventuring groups. Why? Because a DM is not going to keep up with trying to find a distinction between basic conversation and otherwise.

For example: talking to the king they use Rank 1 in a language, however they have Diplomacy 8. Are you going to say they can't talk to the king?

It introduces a little extra work for the DM, but I guess that can be ignored.

The second issue is that 4 ranks is the equivalent of what characters have with Speak Language - ability to fully communicate without synergy bonuses. An average character with a +0 int modifier would know his base language fully - not a problem with Humans (2 default ranks + 2 bonus points). What about demi-humans? They get Common as well in the standard system (don't they?). Even if you said okay KC(Common) 2 for demi-humans, an average joe wouldn't attain the same level of skill as they do now.

Of course this could very well be your intent, to limit knowledge of language to a great degree.

The last point is the 5 rank thing. Granted once they hit 5 they're a linguistic expert, and there is no reason to add to their language skill. However the old system allowed the spending of 2 skill points (1 if you're a bard) to gain a new language at rank 4. Now you're asking them to spend 1 to get basics (see first point) and then another 3 to match their d20 standard ability.

What happens to characters like my Fighter who would buy a language at every second level because he was a mercenary for hire who would work for anyone who could pay? He valued language highly. I couldn't even come near my linguistic skills with this system.

The bypassing a racial limitation on a prestige class is an interesting thing, however if you set it at 15 ranks, then most prestige classes will be quite neutered for non-members of that race, since the standard 3+level restriction on class skills would make this occur only at 12th level. So 13th would be the first point I would racially qualify for the PrC and thus only attain 7 levels ignoring Epic. If it wasn't a class skill then forget it completely.

Instead of ranks, you could possibly go for Knowledge checks. So I attempt to use/read/communicate with KC(dwarf), each rank is a DC (5/rank? 5 + 2 per rank thereafter?) and that indicates what I achieve at that moment.

To bypass a racial limitation on a PrC it would be DC 25 or higher and if I fail I cannot attempt it again until I have added at least 1 skill point to the KC. This would be like the Dwarf Committee for non-standard Defenders saying"

"we've reviewed your application, and indeed you are an impressive candidate, however we regret to inform you that we are unable to grant you access to the training school at this time. You are welcome to apply next year. Please understand that we are an Equal Employment Opportunity group and that this rejection in no way conveys any feeling of animosity to your race, and its lack of dwarfness."

I guess I've thought too much about this huh? :)
 

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