My beefs with D20

[LGodamus]

i would just like to say that i believe d20 with its standardized rules and mechanics makes "winging it" easier than ever, at least much easier than any D&D was before

 

[hong]

No, it's not funny, because you've apparently never had players who do nothing but read, re-read, and re-re-read the rules between every game session. (And then re-re-re-read the rules and chack the Rules Forum at EN World before the game.)

I do.

 

[hong]

Story and character interaction!?

You must have a different set of Monopoly core rules to the ones I'm used to...

-Hyp.

The only way you're going to get my top hat is to pry my cold, dead fingers off it.

 

[Flyspeck23]

I personally played tons of RPGs where the lack of consistent rules was considered a boon for the imagination. Yeah, sure.

D&D/D20 works fine. It's one of the most elegant systems out there (IMHO, of course). But if all you're seeing is rules, it ain't the fault of the system - it's your fault. No one else to blame.

Story and character interaction!?

You must have a different set of Monopoly core rules to the ones I'm used to...

That's Star Wars Monopoly. You move some pewter miniatures of well-known Star Wars characters from planet to planet and watch the story unfold.

 

[Desdichado]

The system supports that behavior. That's self-evident, in my opinion.

How self evident can it be when "the system" also allows for any number of miscellaneous modifiers, and specifically says its up to the DM?

 

[diaglo]

How self evident can it be when "the system" also allows for any number of miscellaneous modifiers, and specifically says its up to the DM?

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the present King of Great-Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World.



edit: i don't know if this is the actual wording from the Declaration of Independence but this is what my faulty memory could recall.

 

[Greatwyrm]

Story and character interaction!?

You must have a different set of Monopoly core rules to the ones I'm used to...

-Hyp.

People often play Monopoly with house rules, sometimes not even realizing that they aren't official rules. That is where the comparison to Monopoly ends.

The core d20 rules cover social interaction. Something the orignal poster seemed to feel was lacking in his game.

 

[ichabod]

The system supports that behavior. That's self-evident, in my opinion.

But the system doesn't cause it. That behavior is a choice on the part of your players, not something that they have to do because of the system. If that is what they enjoy, then switching to a system where they can't do that is only going to reduce their fun. If it isn't what they enjoy, switching the system isn't necessary to get them to stop it.

 

[Tom Cashel]

All right, let's try this once again for people who are conflating what I've said with what others have said, or just haven't bothered to understand what I've said because I'm yanking on the ears of D20 Bessie, their sacred cow.

D20 has a lot of rules. The fact that the DM sets a DC for skill checks is true (and a simple, straightforward mechanic at that), but does not change the fact that there are individual rules for half-a-billion Feats, Skills, Spells, Magic Items, etc. etc. etc. Players prefer their DM to follow the rules as stated in the books (don't tell me my players are the only ones--threads pop up all the time about DMs supposedly drunk on their own power and playing havoc with the rules). Players have more time to study rules than DMs--DMs are expected to come up with a scenario and NPCs, consider the possible results of PC actions, and possibly other chores (such as painting miniatures, readying the gaming space, etc.)--hence players are in a prime position to "correct" their DM.

D20 is a player friendly, but not DM-friendly, game. IN MY OPINION.

So stop trying to change my mind by pointing out why I'm "wrong." I'm pretty sure I know what my own opinion is, and the fact that I'm entitled to it is beyond doubt.

'Kay, Sparky?

 

[Storm Raven]

So Fog Cloud, Acid Fog, Fireball, Detect Evil, Time Stop, Stoneskin, Haste and Cloudkill all use the same mechanic?

Yes. Perhaps you missed this when ranting about how the rules are complicated.