My Brainfart

Kamikaze Midget said:
You're half right.

Okay, if you're willing to explain to me in more detail how you would have handled Bill the Cheese Eater in 3.5, with maybe two example situations (one that makes him an ally, one that makes him an enemy), it might be easier for me to figure out how to advise you. Right now, I'm having trouble figuring out exactly where your problem lies and what I can say to help you out.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I think your clouding your own issues by using such humorous examples, KM.

When you talk about the blacksmith who likes cheese, for example, I have a hard time relating that to... well, ANYTHING rules-wise in any edition. I don't think I've ever seen the phrase "Berserk (cheese) -- +1 to attack and damage when cheese is on the line" anywhere -- so there were no rules that you could use to adjudicate such a thing in the first place.

As a result, your examples come off as behavioral guidelines you'd like to have hard-and-fast rules to cover, something that I don't think any edition has ever offered.

As such, I'm sure that I am not understanding your point correctly (and I suspect I am not alone in this).

So what are you looking for? More fluff? NPC traits? Or... what?
 


First of all, I enjoyed reading the OP a lot. Particularly liked "joggling". Maggie Gyllenhaal does nothing for me however.

Even in 3e, at some point in the NPC design process you were having to make decisions based purely on your game world, without the support of rules. For instance you had to decide if Billy the Blacksmith was a 1st level commoner or a 10th level warrior. And that decision has a huge bearing on what his stats are going to be. And then you had to decide how he spends his skill points and feats, again presumably based on ideas that come solely from the game world. In order for any decision making to be made at all, you must have had a fairly fixed idea of what the game world is and what it isn't, before you assign any stats.

4e monsters really aren't that different from 3e. They have skills and attributes so you know quite a lot about them. Compare that to the threadbare 1e/2e beasties. All they lack in 4e is feats, so there is still a fair amount of info to help you make decisions.

My feeling is that by giving anything stats you're saying "this is for combat", at least potentially. As evidence I cite the fate that befell the gods from the first Deities & Demigods. But I appreciate that YMMV.
 
Last edited:

If they suddenly decide to fight the cheese-loving blacksmith, just treat him, as, oh, an orc, until you have time to do something better. Orcs are strong, right? Take an orc Soldier, slap on one NPC level of Fighter and give him some kind of hammer-based attack and you're good for the time being.
 

Suggestions

Kamikaze Midget said:
By giving me Way Too Many Rules, 3e kind of handled this, but I like how easy 4e is to design for (even on the fly), and I just need it to be a bit more robust for me in this respect. I'm okay with a bit more pre-prep time, but I definately don't want to try and plan out an infinite number of possible scenarios in my head only to have my PCs come up with the one I didn't think of and then be forced to either say NO or fiat my way to Unsatisfying Game Night For KM.

What would do this for you in 3e? Would NPC classes for 4e help you in any way? I seem to have seen a thread on the topic in the 4e House Rules forum.

Would you need some kind of "role" (as in "information resource", "combat challenge", "regenerating meat source", not as "defender", "striker", "leader") do it for you? Maybe the community can think up something of the sort for you (I have a couple of ideas there).

Short of that, I can only imagine you would need a Monster Manual with everything the 4e MM1 doesn't have. Can't help you there. I think it would be too much trouble for anyone to handle by itself (and I'm not even sure WotC would allow something like this for many of the monsters).
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
Fiat is the bane of my fun D&D sessions.
Using the system's descriptive language to describe a nonstandard monster really shouldn't be classified as 'fiat'.

Is all flexibility fiat to you?

I mean, making up a 'lazer troll' that shoots laser beams from its eyes that instantly kill a target, that's rightly called fiat. Making History a Trained skill, not so much...
 

Okay, if you're willing to explain to me in more detail how you would have handled Bill the Cheese Eater in 3.5, with maybe two example situations (one that makes him an ally, one that makes him an enemy), it might be easier for me to figure out how to advise you. Right now, I'm having trouble figuring out exactly where your problem lies and what I can say to help you out.

Sure thing. The first thing to note is that these are things I would jot down during play. When the PC's are discussing what to do, or slogging through combat, or when someone goes to the bathroom for a moment, I'm jotting this down and flipping a few pages.

My Notes For Bill the Blacksmith (who loves cheese) for D&D 3.5.
Bill is the Blacksmith of Podunk. He's an Commoner 1 (DMG PG XX; hp 3), all 10's for stats, his max skill bonus is +4, and he has maxxed out Blacksmithery, and Knowledge (fine cheeses). His weapon is his smith's hammer, which takes a -2 to hit because it's not a real weapon.

That's what I'd jot down in the notebook when I decided that Bill exists (which I might do if the PC's are looking for a blacksmith, or if the horse-seller offered them a discount on a horse that didn't have shoes, or they needed a local to talk to, or whatever). It's not ENTIRELY rules-legal, I guess, but it doesn't need to be. This isn't for mass consumption. :)

The Players Want to Fight Him!: Let's say they decide to rob the neighborhood blacksmith and take his horseshoes, rather than pay for them. I'm game, I like to say YES, so I do. The DMG page tells me all I need to know about running a combat with this guy. Then I can flip back a few pages for the stats of the Warrior town guards that are going to be finding the blacksmith's dead body. I can award XP and GP based on his CR (1/2), as long as the players are around his level. I don't want to bother to roll, so I put some coin in his safe under the bed (along with some valuable cheeses), and maybe 5 gp worth of horseshoes that they find. If I really need to know an exact number, I derive it from the cost of similar items in the PHB if it isn't listed seperately somewhere. I probably don't need to know an exact number, but, y'know, if the start to organize a game of horseshoes somewhere, it'll be there. Or if someone wants to use them as a weapon, I know how to adjudicate that (improvised weapon, damage based on weight, look up weight of item or similar items on a table). One of the PC's picks up the hammer and gets it enchanted by a priest of Moradin, and I drop the cost because I like the thematics.

The Players Want to Take Him Into the Dungeon!: Let's say one of the players is a telepath psion with a high Charisma and ranks in Diplomacy and suddenly Bill is charmed and Diplomicized into being a nearly blind sychophant. The player is created with this being what's fun for him, and I'm going to say YES, so I do, and, barring a few lucky d20 rolls on Bill's part, he's drunk the kool-aid and he'll follow the PC anywhere. Perhaps they sweaten the deal by noticing Bill's impressive collection of cheese wheels, and mentioning the rare Golishen milk that the Goblins have recently raided from the nomadic halflings that were recently in the area (which might be a lie, but this is a Cha-monkey PC vs. a Com1, so he probably gets away with it). It takes some convincing, and Bill is still nervous (he is aware of his capacity to fight monsters -- that it is not good), but he will defend the psion with his life, if need be. For fighting the goblins, I know Bill's combat stats. For searching for traps, I know his Int modifier. For talking with the Goblins, I know his Cha modifier. Of course, he gets in a fight and gets captured, the goblins noticing his smith's hammer. The PC's end up retreating and dealing with other stuff, and I can use Bill's Blacksmithery skill to determine how long it takes the goblins to equip themselves with Bill's smithed weapons (or to shoe thier worgs?), and later, when the PC's fight off some goblins that spring out of freakin' nowhere, they can find an odly hollow sword, and, if they explore it, they can see that a note is on the inside, written in blood on dirty leather: "Help Me, You Poopchutes. Love Bill."

My Notes for Bill the Blacksmith (who loves cheese) for D&D4:
1st level minion human with the following stats [list statblock it took me about 15 mins to 1/2 hour to write up].

That's enough to handle him in combat, and perhaps in a skill challenge, but...how long does it take to make those swords? Is he balanced both as a challenge to reward XP and as a helper? And how do I ask for the extra 15 minutes to stat up Bill if the players decide to fight him, or to use him in the Goblin warrens, or want to know how fast he can shod a small army of horses? And what if one of the PC's picks up that hammer? Was Bill's Greater-Than-10 AC the result of his leather apron? What if someone in the party wants to know how many horseshoes they find in the loot? And uses them as weapons in the ensuing battle against the guards?

And I need to answer any and all of those questions without resorting to fiat, so that I can be consistent and so they can use the answers to those questions as launching points for more wacky adventures.

I totally accept that I'm weird for needing this for my games, but there's gotta be an answer somewhere!!! :D
 

Oh yeah you can do that in 4e. I am too drunk and lazy to lay it out for you, but am sure someone will.

Hint - It is mostly the same as in 3e only there are no skill points and the skills you mention are only flavor.

I'm a Monster...Raaaw!!
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
Was Bill's Greater-Than-10 AC the result of his leather apron? What if someone in the party wants to know how many horseshoes they find in the loot? And uses them as weapons in the ensuing battle against the guards?

Are you serious about needing stats for Leather Aprons, and Horseshoes? Did 3rd edition (core books) give those?

Edit - Oh and Oh! The PHB gives info about improvised weapons. That should answer your last question.
 

Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top