D&D 5E My D&D Next Wishlist: Bring back XP for GP!

[Derren]

Yeah, thanks for proving my point.

Because goblins have the same proportions and size as humans. And of course you killed them all without damaging the armor they wore at all.

Thanks for proving mine.

 

[Hussar]

Maybe you're getting that reaction because you guys weren't paying attention to this:



If you're strip mining the dungeon after you've cleared out the guardians and traps - what's the challenge? The remaining treasure is worth pretty much nothing.

It's fair to skip over that rule, not everybody plays with every rule or guideline. But it's also fair to impose it as the DM. It's also fair to skew the local economy with hyperinflation, deflation of the value of plunder being sold, or to enforce local laws that restrict the sale of weapons and armor. That is not flogging the players.

Are you serious? We kill everything in the dungeon, so therefore nothing remaining is worth anything? The fact that we had to kill everything first apparently makes the treasure valueless for xp.

Man, I don't even have to make points anymore, you guys are doing it perfectly well for me.

Bring mules into the dungeon you say. How much trouble is that? This train of mules can walk up stairs? Climb ladders? Jump off ledges? Cross rope bridges? Jump over exposed pit traps? They don't mind suddenly having deadly monsters around them? Fireballs exploding near them? Bolts of lightning? No morale checks? No animal handling checks? They have stealth capabilities when the party needs to sneak? They're capable of hiding when the encounter the party would like to avoid pops up? They conveniently disappear when cpmbat starts so they're garunteed to survive? Centaur player characters were required to make saves every day spent in a dungeon because they were psychologically adverse to being underground. But pack animals with their animal intelligence are more willing?

Umm, no, you're the one saying bring the mules into the dungeon. While the amateurs might do that, the professionals set up a nice camp a few miles away and bring the treasure to the mules. But, hey, please continue.

Leave the mules with your henchmen, camped 5 miles away. Because random encounters only happen when the pcs are present? Because the hired goons would never consider taking off with their pay and selling the horses, mules and wagons? No, of course not, because contrary to the first 5 minutes of Raiders of the Lost Ark, hirelings NEVER betray their employers. Especially when they're expected to spend a week or so in the wilderness surrounded by monsters they're too weak to fight.

Yup, feel free to talk about how I don't use the rules, but, completely ignore the loyalty rules in the DMG. That's a good method of discussion. And, of course, I've just been told that many random encounters aren't actually combat in AD&D - many are actually non-combat encounters. Yet, apparently, when the DM wants them to be, they're all 100% combat encounters.

Week? How long does it take you to foray into the dungeon. You never come out? You rest in the dungeon? I keep getting told that that can never happen, you get killed that way. So, you fall back and, oh look, there's a camp there. Why are you gone so long? Oh, that's right, in order to prove your point, you have to pretend that the players have the sense of a concussed badger.

"Experience points are merely an indicator of the character's progress towards greater proficency in his or her chosen profession. UPWARD PROGRESS IS NEVER AUTOMATIC. Just because Neil Nimblefingers, Rogue of the Theives Guild has managed to acquire 1,251 exprerience points does NOT mean that she suddenly becomes Neil Nimblefingers the Footpad. The gaining of sufficient experience points is necessary to indicate that a character is eligible to gain a level of experience, but the actual award is a matter for you, the DM, to decide."

Yet... we're not out to screw the players are we? They earned their Xp, yet, we're supposed to deny them the level. Oh, yeah, that's not screwing the players AT ALL.

I mean, quoting from the 1e DMG in an attempt to prove that you don't screw players over isn't perhaps the best place to look. The advice in the 1e DMG is very, very antagonistic and creates a strongly adversarial role for the DM. Don't believe me? Reread the section on finding secret doors.

But, hey, to each his own. Feel free to keep telling me how you're not screwing over the players by arbitrarily deciding that loot isn't really loot, or that the dragon's treasure isn't actually worth any XP because you had to kill the dragon first, therefore, there's not actual challenge to getting that dragon's treasure, so, it must be worth zero xp.

This does go a long way to explaining why people claim that AD&D advances so slowly. I mean, if treasure acquired after defeating an enemy isn't worth any xp, yeah, that would totally slow down advancement.

 

[F700]

Yet it's funny how the broken armor made by goblins protects the goblins every bit as well as any other armor. Yet, apparently is of such shoddy quality that it cannot be sold.

Yeah, thanks for proving my point.

It wasn't broken until the pcs came along and started bashing him with maces, poking him with pointy swords, and blasting him with magic missles. Up until then it was cutting edge goblin fashion.

And really? Are you aware of the typical goblin's bathroom habits? Would you really wear used goblin pants?

 

[Hussar]

Because goblins have the same proportions and size as humans. And of course you killed them all without damaging the armor they wore at all.

Thanks for proving mine.

Snort. Yup, keep shifting those goalposts. Pretty soon the rivets in the chainmail will be all wrong, so, it can't be sold. Never mind the swords, or the helmets or anything else. Last time I checked, orcs were human sized, which was the original example. Sure, goblins are small. Might have trouble selling that.

If a single arrow hit destroys a suit of armor, I think I'll call shenanigans though. But, like I said, those goalposts are on rollerskates and no matter how many points I bring up, you're the DM. What you say goes. There's nothing I, as a player, can really do about it.

Other than vote with my feet I suppose.

 

[Derren]

If a single arrow hit destroys a suit of armor, I think I'll call shenanigans though. But, like I said, those goalposts are on rollerskates and no matter how many points I bring up, you're the DM. What you say goes. There's nothing I, as a player, can really do about it.

Other than vote with my feet I suppose.

No, the goalposts are firm in the ground and have not moved an inch. Who would buy armor which has been damaged in battle and was made for another race? Gnomes and Halflings are at least the same size (toughly). But there is still the issue of damaged 2nd hand armor. Thats not a really good seller.
You are just struggling to explain your video game logic (collect everything, go to vendor, sell). And of course everyone buys doors, tables and everything else found in the dungeon (called junk items in WoW).
No economy, no supply and demand, no quality concerns. What the heroes bring will be bought. If not then the DM is stupid.

 

[F700]

Are you serious? We kill everything in the dungeon, so therefore nothing remaining is worth anything? The fact that we had to kill everything first apparently makes the treasure valueless for xp.

Man, I don't even have to make points anymore, you guys are doing it perfectly well for me.

As already mentioned a couple of times, there are very clear rules describing the value of treasure in relation to the challenge of getting it.

Umm, no, you're the one saying bring the mules into the dungeon. While the amateurs might do that, the professionals set up a nice camp a few miles away and bring the treasure to the mules. But, hey, please continue.

Sorry - when you said you brought a wagon, I assumed you meant, y'know...a wagon...not a little Red Flyer.

Oh, but wait...you left your wagon and hirelings 5 miles away at camp. Which means you never addressed the original point that finding a 2000 pound golden throne didn't automatically get 2000 xp for it. Because you had to get it out of the dungeon. Which is why you brought a wagon and hirelings...who are 5 miles away...so, uhm, how are you getting this 2000 pound throne out of the dungeon and over the 5 miles to your camp? I'll assume you leave it there and then go get your hirelings, and don't make littlers to transport it because like you told me "that's amatuer". And of course after you left the dungeon to get your hirelings and wagons (which are obviously off-road 4 wheel drive wagons), and returned to the dungeon, you are able to teleport the 2000 pound throne out of the dungeon and into your wagon with no problem. No, wait, your wagon is a magic shrinking wagon that can easily navigate the 10 foot wide corridors of the dungeon. And it's pulled by your hirelings, who can pull it up stairs, and ladders, and over pits. And it never gets a broken wheel, because that would be the DM cheating.

Oh, yeah, and the treasure is all right where you left it because living dungeon design be damned.

Yup, feel free to talk about how I don't use the rules, but, completely ignore the loyalty rules in the DMG. That's a good method of discussion.

Yes, ignore the loyalty rules because your hirelings would NEVER consider betraying you. EVER. Regardless of whatever situation you put them in. Like leaving them to fend for themselves in a dangerous environment.

And, of course, I've just been told that many random encounters aren't actually combat in AD&D - many are actually non-combat encounters. Yet, apparently, when the DM wants them to be, they're all 100% combat encounters.

Many random encounters might not be combat encounters. You could potentially roll a random encounter with a dwarf with bad gas. Many published modules had their own custom random encounter tables, and many, many of them were in fact combat encounters. And in AD&D players played their hirelings, or were expected to, so those random encounters with your hirelings might or might not be played off camera.

Week? How long does it take you to foray into the dungeon. You never come out? You rest in the dungeon? I keep getting told that that can never happen, you get killed that way. So, you fall back and, oh look, there's a camp there. Why are you gone so long? Oh, that's right, in order to prove your point, you have to pretend that the players have the sense of a concussed badger.

Depends how big it is. ToEE was pretty darn big, and yes, we certainly spent more than 5 nights in it. Do we never come out? We came out a couple times, but also spent nights camped out in a secured room, with someone standing guard, hoping we wouldn't get random encounters.

I don't know who told you that can never happen and that you'll get killed that way. There's actually quite a bit written about it in AD&D and even some spells specifically designed to facilitate the practice.

Did we fall back and, oh look, there's a camp right there? Not often, like I said. We had a DM who kinda figured that once someone noticed the guards we killed were dead, that they'd be replaced, defenses would be increased, and the whole place would be on general alert. That's living dungeon design. Admittedly, it made it harder to stroll around dungeons with our Little Red Flyers stealing sofas to sell at the used furniture store, but in the end I feel it was worth it.

Why were we gone so long? Have you seen the size of the Temple of Elemental Evil? It's kinda big.

It's not me pretending that we had the sense of concussed badgers (which I have no experience with because we always coup de graced any badgers that dropped below 0 hp from non-lethal damage), we just had what was either a really great DM, or a DM that I thought was the standard. A DM who didn't hand waive everything that was slightly inconvenient, or simply let us have our way because he couldn't be bothered to re-evaluate the adventure according to our actions, or evaluated the scenario impartially and logically. I thought a DM who made the game fun and challenging was the base expectation.

Yet... we're not out to screw the players are we? They earned their Xp, yet, we're supposed to deny them the level. Oh, yeah, that's not screwing the players AT ALL.

Right, it's not, because, y'know...the rules. Never saw a DM deny someone a level. See above for why that might be. Hint: It's something to do with having a DM who functions according to the guidelines given in the rules.

I mean, quoting from the 1e DMG in an attempt to prove that you don't screw players over isn't perhaps the best place to look. The advice in the 1e DMG is very, very antagonistic and creates a strongly adversarial role for the DM. Don't believe me? Reread the section on finding secret doors.

I've never had a problem with the content in the AD&D DMG. Never found it antagonistic, never found my DM adversarial, was never adversarial in my DMing. Never had anyone lose bladder control, cry, or rage quit at my table. I remember some spirited debates, differences of opinion, rules discussions, all of it civil and friendly. It was awesome.

But, hey, to each his own. Feel free to keep telling me how you're not screwing over the players by arbitrarily deciding that loot isn't really loot, or that the dragon's treasure isn't actually worth any XP because you had to kill the dragon first, therefore, there's not actual challenge to getting that dragon's treasure, so, it must be worth zero xp.

It's not arbitrary. There are guidlines for it. Guidelines...rules...written before anyone even played.

It was clearly stated why that treasure might not be counted as xp. A 20th level wizard stealing dinnerware from 20 kobolds isn't really being challenged. As per the rules. The guys killing the dragon, probably challenged. It has nothing to do with whether the monster was killed first. It has to do with whether or not the monster was a challenge.

This does go a long way to explaining why people claim that AD&D advances so slowly. I mean, if treasure acquired after defeating an enemy isn't worth any xp, yeah, that would totally slow down advancement.

AD&D didn't really advance slowly. You just had to realize everything wasn't going to be handed to you on an electrum plate and you'd actually have to earn your levels.

 

[F700]

By the way, Hussar, you've actually insulted me twice now. I'm not the kind of guy who whines to mods with the slightest provocation, but maybe you should relax a little before you wind up wandering the steam tunnels.

It's D&D. It's actually a really stupid, nerdy game. Nothing to get worked up over.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Pretty soon the rivets in the chainmail will be all wrong, so, it can't be sold.

Sorry good sirs...these goblinoid short-swords are of no use to us. See those rivets...those are metric rivets. Us CIVILIZED folk use imperial rivets like good Pelorians. Ain't got no tools to work on those swords, city-boy!

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Oh, yeah, and the treasure is all right where you left it because living dungeon design be damned.

My thoughts on XP for GP aside (it's stupid), any discussion of 1e should stay VERY FAR AWAY from the idea of "living dungeon design".

1e adventures did NOT have living dungeon design. It had a warren of goblins living three minutes walk away from a crypt of skeletons in one direction and a three minutes walk from a cave with a sleeping but angry 7HD cave bear in the other direction. It had goblin leaders going into battle with leather armor and a rusty short sword who had left behind a +2 mace of disintegration hiding under his bunk. It literally had people standing around in designated spots on the map WAITING for a group of adventurers to come by so that they could unleash whatever trap they were waiting to unleash.

Saying "OK we killed all the living things in the dungeon so now we take a week or two to loot and pillage every spare copper piece from the place using our wagon train of followers" is actually MORE realistic to me than any of the above dungeon design ideas.

 

[Obryn]

1e adventures did NOT have living dungeon design. It had a warren of goblins living three minutes walk away from a crypt of skeletons in one direction and a three minutes walk from a cave with a sleeping but angry 7HD cave bear in the other direction. It had goblin leaders going into battle with leather armor and a rusty short sword who had left behind a +2 mace of disintegration hiding under his bunk. It literally had people standing around in designated spots on the map WAITING for a group of adventurers to come by so that they could unleash whatever trap they were waiting to unleash.

Which adventures are these again?

I mean, I know when I was 12, this is how we played them. But we were 12. That's not the adventure's fault.

-O