D&D 5E My D&D Next Wishlist: Bring back XP for GP!

[F700]

My thoughts on XP for GP aside (it's stupid), any discussion of 1e should stay VERY FAR AWAY from the idea of "living dungeon design".

1e adventures did NOT have living dungeon design. It had a warren of goblins living three minutes walk away from a crypt of skeletons in one direction and a three minutes walk from a cave with a sleeping but angry 7HD cave bear in the other direction. It had goblin leaders going into battle with leather armor and a rusty short sword who had left behind a +2 mace of disintegration hiding under his bunk. It literally had people standing around in designated spots on the map WAITING for a group of adventurers to come by so that they could unleash whatever trap they were waiting to unleash.

Saying "OK we killed all the living things in the dungeon so now we take a week or two to loot and pillage every spare copper piece from the place using our wagon train of followers" is actually MORE realistic to me than any of the above dungeon design ideas.

1e adventures did NOT have living dungeon design - that's not a statement you can make. You can say "SOME 1e adventures..." but you can't say that none of them did. You also can't say that the ones that didn't weren't made living by their DMs, because I know many who did just that - according to the rules printed at the time.

It had goblin leaders going into battle with leather armor and a rusty short sword who had left behind a +2 mace of disintegration hiding under his bunk. It literally had people standing around in designated spots on the map WAITING for a group of adventurers to come by so that they could unleash whatever trap they were waiting to unleash. - that's a DMs decision to make. I don't recall a single instance of a module forbidding, or even stating, that a monster couldn't make use of an item it had on it's person, or that it was unable to use any item associated with it.

Yeah, there were items sitting in treasure chests that could've been used, yeah I know that's happened. But is it the monsters fault they didn't get enough warning to run over, disarm the trap, unlock the chest, and start using a weapon they may not have been proficient with, or might've been a sacred artifact they were forbidden to use? Does it matter? Was the encounter designed to be challenging to the party without the inclusion of that item? If it wasn't challenging enough, I guess the DM should've used his perogative and added that item to the monster.

I do recall many instances where the party groaned every time an opponent used a magic item with charges against us - not because of any damage or effects we suffered - but because the item had fewer charges when it became ours.

 

[Mattachine]

1e adventures did NOT have living dungeon design - that's not a statement you can make. You can say "SOME 1e adventures..." but you can't say that none of them did. You also can't say that the ones that didn't weren't made living by their DMs, because I know many who did just that - according to the rules printed at the time.

It had goblin leaders going into battle with leather armor and a rusty short sword who had left behind a +2 mace of disintegration hiding under his bunk. It literally had people standing around in designated spots on the map WAITING for a group of adventurers to come by so that they could unleash whatever trap they were waiting to unleash. - that's a DMs decision to make. I don't recall a single instance of a module forbidding, or even stating, that a monster couldn't make use of an item it had on it's person, or that it was unable to use any item associated with it.

Yeah, there were items sitting in treasure chests that could've been used, yeah I know that's happened.

Whether or not those situations happened all the time, they were very common in AD&D, and if you made a dungeon using the suggestions in the DMG, that is exactly what you got.

 

[F700]

Whether or not those situations happened all the time, they were very common in AD&D, and if you made a dungeon using the suggestions in the DMG, that is exactly what you got.

Not in the least.

AD&D DMG pgs 104 - 105 outlines 6 different example scenarios featuring monsters of various intelligence and provides 2 different examples for each demonstrating how the behavior of those monsters or the scenario would be different were the party to disengage the encounter and then later return.

Which means dungeons in D&D were always meant to be living environments. Which means returning to, or taking your time in, a dungeon to loot every last scrap of potentially sellable item, was never the intent.

Which means xp for gp is reasonable, because any dungeon is going to have a reasonable amount of treasure which can be recovered.

Also means fears of players "Greyhawking" it are unfounded, because played with the spirit intended players wouldn't be able to turn every last spoon into xp.

And even if they did, the DM would have the authority to rule that the gp acquired wasn't eligible as xp, or could deny the pcs leveling.

So when you consider all the factors involved it's a perfectly viable system.

Point being, would gp for xp work with 5e?

Yes, yes it could. And many people find the idea desirable.

 

[Mattachine]

At the same time the AD&D DMG provided those guidelines, it provided random dungeons and encounter tables. There was definitely a mixed message.

Of course, the looting of "dungeons" isn't what came up in my games: it was the looting of castles, wizard towers, strongholds, etc.

 

[F700]

At the same time the AD&D DMG provided those guidelines, it provided random dungeons and encounter tables. There was definitely a mixed message.

Of course, the looting of "dungeons" isn't what came up in my games: it was the looting of castles, wizard towers, strongholds, etc.

No reason those rules can't apply to a randomly generated dungeon.

Castle, tower, stronghold, etc...a dungeon by any other name smells just as dank.

Now, if you want a real gp for xp arguement...should players get that xp for gp BEFORE or AFTER taxes, tithing, tributes, etc? Do they lose xp when they pay taxes - effectively turning the tax collector into a wight-like creature?

 

[Obryn]

At the same time the AD&D DMG provided those guidelines, it provided random dungeons and encounter tables. There was definitely a mixed message.

Of course, the looting of "dungeons" isn't what came up in my games: it was the looting of castles, wizard towers, strongholds, etc.

Waitasec. Are you really saying, "Well, if you don't actually design your dungeon so much as let random dice rolls do it, you get weird results?" Because ... duh?

Much like ... well, just about everything XP-wise in 1e, the DM can determine the difficulty and adjust accordingly.

If the guardian(s) was relatively weaker, award experience on a 5 g.p. to 4 x.P., 3 to 2,2 to 1,3 to 1, or even 4 or more to 1 basis according to the relative strengths. For example, if a 10th level magic-user takes 1,OOO g.p. from 10 kobolds, the relative strengths are about 20 to 1 in favor of the magic-user. (Such strength comparisons are subjective and must be based upon the degree of challenge the Dungeon Master had the monster(s) pose the treasure taker.)

-O

 

[F700]

Waitasec. Are you really saying, "Well, if you don't actually design your dungeon so much as let random dice rolls do it, you get weird results?" Because ... duh?

Much like ... well, just about everything XP-wise in 1e, the DM can determine the difficulty and adjust accordingly.



-O

I think his intention was "If the DMG had ways of generating random dungeons, those dungeons couldn't be expected to be living environments due to their not having been planned or thought out beforehand."

Or so I construed his intent to be. I don't feel random dungeons make turning the results into a living environment impossible or even difficult.

An important thing to remember about just about every random table in AD&D is that Gygax indicates multiple times that any result you don't like should be ignored.

As much flak as AD&D gets for being DM controlled, it's stated many, many times over that the DM should ignore whatever rule he needs to in order to facilitate gameplay. The sword in AD&D, possibly more than in any other edition, swings both ways.

 

[Hussar]

Heh, it's funny. When a player tries to beat the DM over the head with the rules, by selectively quoting from the books and conveniently ignoring whatever doesn't fit, he's called a bad player and a rules lawyer.

But, apparently when DM's do it, it's perfectly fine. I mean, people are selectively quoting rules at me all the while ignoring other rules. Funny how that works. And other DM's are tripping over themselves to pat each other on the back.

Never mind the massively shifting goalposts. 2000 pound golden thrones? Where did that come from? Of course, ignoring the fact that we've already KILLED EVERYTHING IN THE DUNGEON, so you can move your camp forward, why not leave it there for a while since no one else is going to be able to shift it either? Again, amateur hour dungeon crawling (I assume this is the apparent insult I've given) will give bad results.

But, like this entire thread has shown, some DM's will simply change the situation until the PC's fail. Every camp will be ambushed. Every hireling will be disloyal and steal your horses. No one will ever buy used items, regardless of quality (or maybe, oh, I dunno, the PC's casting Mending on it?). And, if any group does manage to clear these hurdles, the DM will simply invent more and more until they eventually fail.

Yeah, I stopped playing like this as a DM a long time ago. I used to be there. I followed the advice in the AD&D DMG. I don't do that anymore.

 

[Derren]

Yeah, I stopped playing like this as a DM a long time ago. I used to be there. I followed the advice in the AD&D DMG. I don't do that anymore.

Now you DM by video game logic? Trash vendors in every city which buy everything the PCs can get from monsters, no questions asked? Broken armor made for a race very different from your own? Sold! Slightly used shackles with only a little bit of rust? You can never have enough of them. A used oak table with some scratches from weapons and a few stains, likely blood? Who doesn't want something like that.

Or have you streamlined by now and invented a "sell all" ritual which directly converts everything into gold?

 

[Obryn]

Funny how that works. And other DM's are tripping over themselves to pat each other on the back.
...
But, like this entire thread has shown, some DM's will simply change the situation until the PC's fail.

Are we even reading the same thread?

1e and 4e are both outstanding games - my two favorite RPGs. They operate off of some different assumptions. This is a very good thing, otherwise I'd have no reason to play both.

I have absolutely no idea how we got from "You know, I think XP for gold adds a cool element that my group enjoyed" to "DMs want their players to fail."

-O