My first 4E game...

re

I thought 4E would play like a video game myself. But it doesn't. It plays closer to a fantasy game than 3E primarily because the healing system is more like a novel than a game. I have never read a novel requiring clerics or priests to give constant healing, and in 4E that is actually true. You can get by with much less healing.

I don't think the classes play the same at all. So far I've played a rogue, a cleric, and a paladin. All three classes play very different. The claim they are homogenous and play the same is an out and out untruth. They don't feel the same at all, especially at first level.

I find being a 1st level adventurer in 4E more like what being a 1st level adventurer was supposed to be: a fairly experienced combatant who has spent many years training to survive adventures.

The whole I'm a 1st level guy who can die in one hit didn't at all fit the idea of a starting adventurer who just spent a great deal of his life training to adventure and wield weapons. Instead you actually feel like a combat veteran about to set out on your own. I much prefer the starting feel of 4E because it makes you feel like a seasoned combatant right from the beginning, like you actually did spend quite a bit of time training in your chosen class.

Much, much better mechanic than the 3E start at 1st level being enormously weak and able to be slain with one or two lucky hits. That didn't at all feel like a fighter or wizard that had spent a great portion of their life learning their profession.

4E is a nice game. I feel it did a very good job of differentiating classes. In fact a superior job to 3E because it allows for specialization within a given class. No more assuming your a wisdom based cleric or a strength based paladin. Instead you have alot more options for building paladins and clerics with different focuses.

So the whole "classes feel homogenous" isn't at all true. A 3rd edition cleric at the early levels is almost exactly the same as any other cleric at early levels. A low level fighter is the same as any other fighter. There was very little to separate one class from another of the same class at early levels. But the differentiation of classes starts very early in 4E. So I'm not buying that classes are homogenous compared to 3E until I see what kind of splat books come out.

Because as far the Player's Handbook goes, the 4E Player's Handbook offers way more options than the 3E Player's Handbook for starting characters. If the splatbooks expand 4E options as they did 3E options, then I see 4E as having superior specialization and differentiation at higher levels as well.

It kicks 3Es behind at character differentiation at early levels. It isn't even arguable.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

First let me address this...
I don't think the classes play the same at all. So far I've played a rogue, a cleric, and a paladin. All three classes play very different. The claim they are homogenous and play the same is an out and out untruth. They don't feel the same at all, especially at first level.

Okay, here you compare 3 different roles for 4e, then...

So the whole "classes feel homogenous" isn't at all true. A 3rd edition cleric at the early levels is almost exactly the same as any other cleric at early levels. A low level fighter is the same as any other fighter. There was very little to separate one class from another of the same class at early levels. But the differentiation of classes starts very early in 4E. So I'm not buying that classes are homogenous compared to 3E until I see what kind of splat books come out.

You go on to compare the same class (roles) in 3e. I feel that two players in the same class are just as, if not more similar, in 4e as they are in 3e. Two fighters starting out in 4e feel very much the same, probably more similar than in 3e.


Because as far the Player's Handbook goes, the 4E Player's Handbook offers way more options than the 3E Player's Handbook for starting characters. If the splatbooks expand 4E options as they did 3E options, then I see 4E as having superior specialization and differentiation at higher levels as well.

I think there are more choices in the core 3.5 books as opposed to the 3 core 4th ed. books for differentiation. The fact that there are more classes alone swings this in 3.5's favor.

It kicks 3Es behind at character differentiation at early levels. It isn't even arguable.

Uhm...yes, yes it is arguable. Is an archery based fighter viable in 4e (nope)? Or a Rogue who uses a longsword as opposed to a shortsword (not if you want to use your powers it's not)? The power structure is kind of limiting in it's execution, if you want to tweak the archetypes, even in small ways.


I find being a 1st level adventurer in 4E more like what being a 1st level adventurer was supposed to be: a fairly experienced combatant who has spent many years training to survive adventures.

The whole I'm a 1st level guy who can die in one hit didn't at all fit the idea of a starting adventurer who just spent a great deal of his life training to adventure and wield weapons. Instead you actually feel like a combat veteran about to set out on your own. I much prefer the starting feel of 4E because it makes you feel like a seasoned combatant right from the beginning, like you actually did spend quite a bit of time training in your chosen class.

Much, much better mechanic than the 3E start at 1st level being enormously weak and able to be slain with one or two lucky hits. That didn't at all feel like a fighter or wizard that had spent a great portion of their life learning their profession.

I'll disagree with this only in that 3.5 is a more versatile game because of this. You want a grittier, in the mud, death comes quick game...3.5 allows it at low-level play. If you don't start at 3rd or 4th level and don't worry about it.
 


Yep. You'll just have the word 'ranger' written down on your character sheet. Doesn't mean you're not actually a fighter (using the term in the in-game sense, not the metagame sense).

Was expecting this rote reply, but I could make an archery based Ranger in 3.5 as well. So I had a high hit point/high armored archer without the "nature" subtext...as well as what I get in 4e. I also noticed you didn't comment on the Rogue who uses a longsword.
 

I would like to avoid another edition war thread. Besides, I am not comparing 4E to 3E. My system of choice is C&C. So 4E is going to have to beat my love for C&C to become my new "go to" game.


There are lots of things I love from other editions of D&D. Thats why I have the house rules I do. Thats why I am writing up a "Alchemist" as a class based on 1e/2E, and early Bard Games material.

That why, even if I don't fall in love with 4E, I will be stealing the ideas I like for my C&C game.

So for me its a win/win situation. If 4E blows me away I get a new awesome system as my "go to" game. If I don't fall in love with it I get a bunch of cool new ideas to steal for my house rules.

Which is one of the strongest reasons I like C&C. Its such a strong core mechanic I can integrate rules from any edition I like a rule from. Or from Talislanta, Paladium Fantasy, GURPS, and so on.

So no edition wars. I will either love 4E, or I won't. Its that simple, so lets keep it that way in this thread.

I think 4E classes are homogenous, the only thing different is the names used for doing the same thing/getting the same results. If thats good enough of a disguise to convince you there is a difference, great. I tear down mechanics to mechanics, The names are just window dressing. They all roll a d20 and do certain ranges of damage that are within 2 points of each other. They are homogenous. Only the name flavor makes a difference. Only imagining its fire versus cold versus a divine attack versus Viper Strike makes a difference, not in what is achieved.

So that is why I call it homogenous. By evening the playing field, and making everyones damage field effectiveness essentially equal, its "homogenous". So IMO its all true. I am glad others can see it as "varied". I guess I am too jaded or just pay too much attention to the raw numbers by removing the window dressing.
 

BTW, homogenous isn't "bad", its just I don't like it in this instance. I prefer the way it applies in the older Archetype systems. IE when everyone starts out at first level they all have similar attack values, damage ranges, etc... and as their levels progress that homogenous breaks down and they become differentiated in greater and greater degrees. Feats enhanced this even more in 3E. Which is also why I don't mind wizards being "one spell wonders", they are usually just as numerically effective as everyone else with the crossbow, and should do their best to stay at range due to their lousy AC and HP.

So maybe I'll try out 4E at higher levels to see if this differentiation occurs and to what degree.

The subject of running a 10th level game, then a 15th level game, and maybe then another at an even higher level was already discussed with favorable attitudes.

So hopefully we will do that.
 

Heh...this is where I think 4E really shines.

This is the first edition where I found a paladin actually play differently than the fighter.

The fighter feels like quicksand whereas the paladin's challenge ability seems more something straight out of a chivalry novel.

It really plays differently and is what impressed my the most.
 

You go on to compare the same class (roles) in 3e. I feel that two players in the same class are just as, if not more similar, in 4e as they are in 3e. Two fighters starting out in 4e feel very much the same, probably more similar than in 3e.

That's because you don't understand the new paradigm. If you did, you would see they don't feel like 3E at all. 3E is very limited comparatively. You can still build a two weapon fighter or an effective sword and board player. That is the focus of the fighter in this game.

But, that is not the paradigm...

I think there are more choices in the core 3.5 books as opposed to the 3 core 4th ed. books for differentiation. The fact that there are more classes alone swings this in 3.5's favor.

Classes no longer hold true in 4th edition in the same sense as they did in 3rd edition that is the part you don't seem to understand that takes a bit of play to pick up on. When you play a fighter, you are no longer just a fighter. You are in essence the heavy armored guy at the front of the battle trained to hold the line and be that guy that focuses attacks on you.



Uhm...yes, yes it is arguable. Is an archery based fighter viable in 4e (nope)?

Yes it is. It is called a ranger now. A light, highly mobile warrior that uses a bow and is more like a light special operations fighter. This is the new paradigm.

When you think 3rd edition terms, you believe what you believe. But this is not 3rd edition. This is fourth edition where roles are very clearly defined and specialized according to what you want to do.

If you want to play an "archery fighter" you play a ranger specialized in archery. The ranger is not a woodsman anymore, he is a more a light and mobile fighter with a couple of unique fighting styles and abilities.


Or a Rogue who uses a longsword as opposed to a shortsword (not if you want to use your powers it's not)? The power structure is kind of limiting in it's execution, if you want to tweak the archetypes, even in small ways.

No it isn't. If you want to use a longsword, you make a ranger and you get Thievery as a bonus skill with a feat. That is the kind of customization you get with 4E.

No longer is a rogue the only person able to search for traps. You can build all kinds of different characters that do different things in 4E.

You can make a fighter good at searching for traps and fighting with a sword and shield. You can make a two weapon ranger with two longsowords who searches for traps and is basically a rogue who fights with two longswords. You can make a wizard that fights with a sword and is effective and combines with spells.

If you include multi-classing, you can further customize a character.

That's why I say character differentiation is even greater in 4E because in 3.5 E you were forced to be a rogue if you wanted to search for traps. You were forced to be a cleric if you wanted to heal. You were forced to be a ranger if you wanted to track.

None of that is required in 4E. You can customize a character using the core classes and feats in a way that was much more difficult and forced multiclassing 3E.

If you full understood the extent to which you can customize in 4E, you would see that it isn't arguable that you can make more unique 4E characters at earlier levels than you could in 3E.

I know 3E as good as anyone having played from 1st to 18th or so level in several campaigns. I can't claim to know the epic rules, but I know what you can do with a variety of characters. I know with certanty the customization options for differentiating your characters are far greater in 4E than they ever were in 3E.


I'll disagree with this only in that 3.5 is a more versatile game because of this. You want a grittier, in the mud, death comes quick game...3.5 allows it at low-level play. If you don't start at 3rd or 4th level and don't worry about it.

You want to play a game like that, you play GURPs. Nobody starts the game and plays until 3rd or 4th level and starts over. So that's not much a point. You start off so weak you can die with one hit from an orc, and end up where a thousand orcs couldn't touch you. That's a real gritty simulation there. Yeah, i'm buying that.

In 4E orcs can be a serious threat at all levels. That feels more like say a Lord of the Rings movies where the main characters feared a horde of orcs. In 3E a horde of orcs was a joke to high level characters. It is much more gritty and feels more like a book than 3E which turned absurd past level 10 unless you were willing to load that orc horde down with magic items they would not have.

I like that 4E starts you at a certain level of power and maintains that level of power much like GURPS. You almost always have about the same chance of dying in 4E to monsters of equivalent skill and level. More like GURPS or other more advanced systems.

The whole game scales better from the early levels on up.

It allows for a great deal of customimization right from the beginning. I like that.

If you accept the new class paradigm as I have done, you see that it is more differentiated and customizable than 3E. You sound like a person that hasn't delved too deeply into the 4E rules.
 

@Celtavian: Treebore has asked that this thread not devolve into an argument about 3e and 4e, so in order to respect his wishes in this thread I have forked my reply to the above in another thread.
 


Remove ads

Top