My first Homebrew attempt to fix the elven dex fighter/rapier and bow all too frequent build in my campaign: I need some advice!

[FrogReaver]

@Strider1973

I don't think your change will keep anyone from going dex rapier fighters. Best case is you make them adapt their racial choice to variant human and take that feat right out the gate anyways.

Below are a few recommendations and some combination of them may help solve the issue in your game.

A few possibilities:
A) Create good encumberance rules and enforce them.
B) Buff Strength based ranged weapons. Perhaps all magical thrown weapons automatically have the returning property. Perhaps change bow damage to key off strength instead of dex. Perhaps fundamentally change how crossbows work so they become a good strength alternative to a bow. Perhaps add single shot guns in.
C) Change how initiative bonus is calculated. Perhaps initiative isn't always calculated based on dexterity. Maybe sometimes it's wisdom or perception. Maybe sometimes it's insight. Maybe characters just have an initiative bonus equal to their proficiency modifier. Maybe you change it so nothing adds to initiative and then give a rogue an ability that directly bypasses that.
D) Create more challenges that key of strength or athletics and don't always have an easy way to bypass them otherwise.

IMO. The 2 biggest reasons players go rapier and bow is because you do comparable damage to strength based weapons in melee and have a much better ranged attack than strength based characters. If you give strength based weapons a decent ranged option and give strength characters some noticeably helpful benefits other than stealth and initiative then I think your problem would be solved.

 

[Blue]

1. For the future, I’m thinking of using this:
   1. Finesse weapons: you can add your Dexterity or your Strength modifier to the “to hit” roll, but, by default, you add your Strength modifier to the damage dealt.
   2. If you want to add your Dexterity modifier to damage dealt, you have to take the “Agile Fighter” (or would “Finesse Fighter” be a better name?) Feat (see below)

This screws over rogues HARD. It hurts rangers who can currently go melee or ranged, and no one is complaining that rangers are overpowered. It screws over most two weapon fighting builds, another thing people don't consider overpowered. It basically tells every +DEX race not to be a melee combatant.

It discourages unusual builds that aren't normally melee-centric but having a decent DEX from even trying it.

It penalizes a symptom in a punitive way that hurts other character concepts as well instead of addressing the root problem. If DEX was of only moderate import, then having a d8 one handed weapon wouldn't be a problem just like it's not with several STR weapons that fit that bill.

So, the same thing I said on your other post - you're addressing the wrong problem. And adding that this particular way of addressing has a lot of collateral damage that further hurts things which are on-par or already underpowered.

 

[5ekyu]

This screws over rogues HARD. It hurts rangers who can currently go melee or ranged, and no one is complaining that rangers are overpowered. It screws over most two weapon fighting builds, another thing people don't consider overpowered. It basically tells every +DEX race not to be a melee combatant.

It discourages unusual builds that aren't normally melee-centric but having a decent DEX from even trying it.

It penalizes a symptom in a punitive way that hurts other character concepts as well instead of addressing the root problem. If DEX was of only moderate import, then having a d8 one handed weapon wouldn't be a problem just like it's not with several STR weapons that fit that bill.

So, the same thing I said on your other post - you're addressing the wrong problem. And adding that this particular way of addressing has a lot of collateral damage that further hurts things which are on-par or already underpowered.

I wonder - if his minmaxers decide "hey the wizard is most powerful" and start taking the wizard for "reasons the GM doesnt approve of" what changes to INT and daggers will follow?

 

[Gladius Legis]

This screws over rogues HARD. It hurts rangers who can currently go melee or ranged, and no one is complaining that rangers are overpowered. It screws over most two weapon fighting builds, another thing people don't consider overpowered. It basically tells every +DEX race not to be a melee combatant.

It barely hurts Rogues at all. Rogues get nearly all their damage from Sneak Attack. 5 less damage on the 1 hit they'll ever land in a round is a drop in the bucket.

Rangers are hurt a little bit more, sure, but that has more to do with the Ranger's class features, many of which suck, than anything else. It'll make DEX-Rangers have to take a 14 STR to do at least passable damage, which makes them as MAD as ... a STR-Ranger who needs 14 DEX for AC. I just don't have much sympathy with the glut of 8 STR/20 DEX builds in 5e.

 

[FrogReaver]

It barely hurts Rogues at all. Rogues get nearly all their damage from Sneak Attack. 5 less damage on the 1 hit they'll ever land in a round is a drop in the bucket.

Rangers are hurt a little bit more, sure, but that has more to do with the Ranger's class features, many of which suck, than anything else. It'll make DEX-Rangers have to take a 14 STR to do at least passable damage, which makes them as MAD as ... a STR-Ranger who needs 14 DEX for AC. I just don't have much sympathy with the glut of 8 STR/20 DEX builds in 5e.

Is this another instance of someone looking at very high levels of play to guage an ability as opposed to look at the first 10 or so? Losing 3 damage on a level 1 rouge drops their damage down by about 30%. Losing 3 damage on a level 3 rogue drops your damage by about 22%. Losing 4 damage on a level 5 rogue drops your damage by about 22% as well.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Is this another instance of someone looking at very high levels of play to guage an ability as opposed to look at the first 10 or so? Losing 3 damage on a level 1 rouge drops their damage down by about 30%. Losing 3 damage on a level 3 rogue drops your damage by about 22%. Losing 4 damage on a level 5 rogue drops your damage by about 22% as well.

So? It's still 3 damage. And at most 5.

If that percentage drop happens to be unacceptable to the Rogue player, God forbid they invest in a 12 or 14 STR. Rogues are a SAD class with an extra ASI in their progression and can easily afford to do so.

 

[Satyrn]

I think you should just ban elves.

 

[CleverNickName]

My go-to suggestion for people having trouble with "broken" character builds is: don't use optional rules. Don't allow multiclassing, don't use feats, don't give Advantage for flanking, etc. I think they kept these things optional for a reason.

If that doesn't fly with your group, or it doesn't fix the problem, how about this? We've had pretty good luck with two very minor tweaks:

• Use Intelligence for initiative rolls instead of Dexterity (alertness and quick thinking, not reflexes)
• Remove the finesse property from rapiers.

 

[Gladius Legis]

You may as well get rid of rapiers entirely if you remove the finesse property. It literally just becomes a longsword you can't two-hand.

 

[Yunru]

You may as well get rid of rapiers entirely if you remove the finesse property. It literally just becomes a longsword you can't two-hand.

Or replace finesse with Versatile (Reach)?