grickherder
First Post
And also torrent software isn't just for pirating. Yesterday I downloaded a copy of Linux that was delivered by a torrent file. I had to go get a copy of utorrent.
I must be guilty!
My name is "Defendant Radzikowski"
- Thread starter Damador
- Start date
And also torrent software isn't just for pirating. Yesterday I downloaded a copy of Linux that was delivered by a torrent file. I had to go get a copy of utorrent.
I must be guilty!
I think the whole problem is simple, and it can justify wizards stopping selling PDF products.
Lets see: There are countries where you can make copies of the pdf, and it is perfectly legal, it is perfectly legal if your copies are sent to the people you run demo groups for, and if you make it available in such communities.
But nothing can stop other people taking that copy and posting it on major P2P sites.
For the first part: Wizards can decide they can see how much money they got from reprography fees, can decide ok, it isn't a problem, since most people there still buys the game, and a higher percentage of players buy books there than in brick and mortar clubs, so good for everyone.
For the secound part: How to find the uploader? At this point the file is distributed to masses who doesn't want to pay for it, and it is bad, sets a bad example, and people there don't pay a reprography fee, etc.
I think it is hard to see any scenario where WOTC can get some decision made in US courts enforced in poland about this, and if US courts recoginze they should use polish laws to judge it (it is possible for them, to do so, right?) or decide WOTC should contact a polish court (this is even more possible) WOTC doesn't get anything...
Except...
They posted a good reason for:
Ditching rpgnow, dtrpg. less competition when they will sell stuff with DDI, better deals.
No more 3E and 3.5E sales, so those supplements and Pathfinder RPG won't be an alternative to 4E, and if there are many players who want to keep 3E trying to force them to 4E seems to be a way to sell more 4E products later.
Lets see: There are countries where you can make copies of the pdf, and it is perfectly legal, it is perfectly legal if your copies are sent to the people you run demo groups for, and if you make it available in such communities.
But nothing can stop other people taking that copy and posting it on major P2P sites.
For the first part: Wizards can decide they can see how much money they got from reprography fees, can decide ok, it isn't a problem, since most people there still buys the game, and a higher percentage of players buy books there than in brick and mortar clubs, so good for everyone.
For the secound part: How to find the uploader? At this point the file is distributed to masses who doesn't want to pay for it, and it is bad, sets a bad example, and people there don't pay a reprography fee, etc.
I think it is hard to see any scenario where WOTC can get some decision made in US courts enforced in poland about this, and if US courts recoginze they should use polish laws to judge it (it is possible for them, to do so, right?) or decide WOTC should contact a polish court (this is even more possible) WOTC doesn't get anything...
Except...
They posted a good reason for:
Ditching rpgnow, dtrpg. less competition when they will sell stuff with DDI, better deals.
No more 3E and 3.5E sales, so those supplements and Pathfinder RPG won't be an alternative to 4E, and if there are many players who want to keep 3E trying to force them to 4E seems to be a way to sell more 4E products later.
In my country, PDF downloads YOU!
Fair enough, I apologize.
Piratecat
Sesquipedalian
Also fair enough. There are certainly some excellent reasons to have torrenting software. I went and edited my original snarky post once I considered it. Really, either way, it's not my job to judge.
Alnag
First Post
This is really arguable. If I copy my PDF from hard drive of my old computer to my new computer I've made a copy. So am I breaching copyright of the rights-owner? If yes, than we are all screwed!
If no... than I can legally copy the PDF file in question to flashdrive. Than borrow the flashdrive to someone. Who can than read the file. Is borrowing the flashdrive illegal? Hardly. Is letting someone read the file illegal? In which case? If he is reading it on our computer? Or from our flashdrive on his computer? Etc.
If all is still all right and we borrow the flashdrive to someone. Can he copy the file in question from the flashdrive to his hard drive? Maybe not. But can we be made responsible for such actions? I guess no.
Information wants to be free. It can't be caged. You can try... but you can't win. It is the principle of the world.
Lonely Tylenol
First Post
I had to change my name from Dr. Awkward because the ENWorld system confused me with dr awkward after they switched to ENWorld 2.
I could decide to call myself Al Gore, but that doesn't mean I'll get paid to hit the lecture circuit and talk about the weather.
Lonely Tylenol
First Post
And this means...what?...exactly? All the software on there is legal. I myself have µtorrent installed. What exactly are you implying here?
Lonely Tylenol
First Post
A bit off topic, but I have to point out that those weren't American lawyers. They were Swedish lawyers in the employ of the IFPI, which is Europe's RIAA. They had to have known that bringing new evidence after discovery had concluded would not be permitted by the judge. But they did it anyway, for reasons that remain obscure.
Silenttimo
First Post
This all story is really complex.
When there was nothing "virtual", I could lend a book, a video-tape, music-tape, CD, RPG book to anyone close (friend, family), and this was not illegal UNLESS I would lend those items and being paid for it, or had to pay to borrow those items.
The same was for borrowing something from a friend.
The thing is, when I had lent something to (or borrowed from) a friend, ONLY ONE of us could watch / read / listen.
But even with the internet, if you were to lend such an item, you can not be sure that the book won't be xeroxed or scanned, the CD, tape, DVD won't be copied, and then, put on emule, torrent, etc...
The thing, with pdf, is that you could imagine having bought a .pdf (or a VOD, or a mp3) product and lend it (lending a copy), and you could still have accesse to your own file.
But if you have legally bought it. Do we have to consider it a crime ?
I would say that if you lend a pdf to ONE person at a time (and if you are sure the previous one has erased the file), it is no crime.
But how can you be sure ?
Have you never heard of someone everyone trusted to be dishonnest after all (Madoff could be an example at a large scale, but there are so many such "little"examples) ?
Have you never heard of family stories when, the parents gone, relationships between brothers and sisters went awry about the money left ?
So, could you swear, about someone you know very very well, that if he'd ever do something you consider impossible for him to do and dishonest according to your own values, you'd immediately kill yourself ?
I think that the thing that this person should not have done is sharing with several persons (including under 18) a pdf.
However, I guess that nobody could blame if for lending his pdf to ONE person and printing his pdf so that others could also read the book of rules.
There are also 2 things I really think :
- RPG is a bit of a "bourgeois" hobby : you need money to buy books, minis, dice (and so on) that could be wasted elsewhere if you are very short on money (I can borrow a book at a public library, but I can not play if I don't find at least 1-2 persons around the table that have the core rule books). I guess it needs to be clear : there are poor people playing RPG, but you do not find lots of RPGers in Africa, most of small central America states, lots of asian countries, and even in Europe or North America, most of the people playing come from an above average social & money family (not all, but most) ;
- there is a kind of hypocrisis around here : I would like everyone criticizing this polish guy SWEARING (upon his holy texts and family) that he/she has NEVER downloaded afile (movie, music or book...) AND never copied a file (DVD, CD, mp3, ..., that were lent and not bought previously) AND has NEVER used an illegal pdf/mp3/video/music file.
I consider myself as an honest person :
- We have (wife & I) lots of books (RPG or not, D&D RPG being ODD, D&D, AD&D 1 & 2, D&D 3.0, 3.5 and D&D 4E, TSR/WOTC or other publisher), CD's, DVD's,
- We have NEVER downloaded illegal material (be it music, movie or book) since we do not like that, and I like to collect "solid" stuff,
- We own more than 250 RPG adventures / box / books / other various material and maybe more than that (second hand or new) [technically I do own them since she doesn't play], more than 600 "bought" CD's and maybe more than that (likewise) , more than 700 DVD's and maybe more than that (likewise) and more than 300 various art books / pocket books / comics (mostly "european" comic books) and maybe more than that (likewise),
- HOWEVER : I know that we own about 12-15 copied CD's (I guess about 2% of all our CD's, anyway that is illegal ; no copied DVD's though ; at least 8-10 of those copied CD's would be bought by us if we could find them at a reasonnable price though), I know that I do own a CD-rom with about 6-7 adventures from a publisher that were bought by someone else but he copied them for me since I could not find them (but I am still looking to BUY them if I find them for a reasonnable price).
So, even being honest (I guess, and my friends consider me as an honest man), having bought so much items & products, I could not swear being TOTALLY on the "good" side of the fence between legal/illegal.
OK, now for something completely different (sorry to leave the trail) :
Think about this (regarding CD's and DVD's) : you buy an item, you are told it is a great product, you then happen to know this product won't last more than 8-10-12 years (nobody can really tell).
I feel that if in several years, I had to buy everything again, this would be dishonest from the entertainment major companies, even stealing my money : I know people who have 30-40 years old vynil discs, I own books that are 80-90 years old, and now, I am told nothing will last more than a decade ?
Moreover, maybe there won't be any player capable of reading my DVD's ?
If I chose to download every movie I have on DVD, (and only those) because I paid for them and I want to still be able to watch them in a few years, would I be a pirat, a stealer, dishonest ?
If I chose not to, but found that my DVD's are "dead" in 5 years, what would you think ?
Who is stealing in that case ?
When there was nothing "virtual", I could lend a book, a video-tape, music-tape, CD, RPG book to anyone close (friend, family), and this was not illegal UNLESS I would lend those items and being paid for it, or had to pay to borrow those items.
The same was for borrowing something from a friend.
The thing is, when I had lent something to (or borrowed from) a friend, ONLY ONE of us could watch / read / listen.
But even with the internet, if you were to lend such an item, you can not be sure that the book won't be xeroxed or scanned, the CD, tape, DVD won't be copied, and then, put on emule, torrent, etc...
The thing, with pdf, is that you could imagine having bought a .pdf (or a VOD, or a mp3) product and lend it (lending a copy), and you could still have accesse to your own file.
But if you have legally bought it. Do we have to consider it a crime ?
I would say that if you lend a pdf to ONE person at a time (and if you are sure the previous one has erased the file), it is no crime.
But how can you be sure ?
Have you never heard of someone everyone trusted to be dishonnest after all (Madoff could be an example at a large scale, but there are so many such "little"examples) ?
Have you never heard of family stories when, the parents gone, relationships between brothers and sisters went awry about the money left ?
So, could you swear, about someone you know very very well, that if he'd ever do something you consider impossible for him to do and dishonest according to your own values, you'd immediately kill yourself ?
I think that the thing that this person should not have done is sharing with several persons (including under 18) a pdf.
However, I guess that nobody could blame if for lending his pdf to ONE person and printing his pdf so that others could also read the book of rules.
There are also 2 things I really think :
- RPG is a bit of a "bourgeois" hobby : you need money to buy books, minis, dice (and so on) that could be wasted elsewhere if you are very short on money (I can borrow a book at a public library, but I can not play if I don't find at least 1-2 persons around the table that have the core rule books). I guess it needs to be clear : there are poor people playing RPG, but you do not find lots of RPGers in Africa, most of small central America states, lots of asian countries, and even in Europe or North America, most of the people playing come from an above average social & money family (not all, but most) ;
- there is a kind of hypocrisis around here : I would like everyone criticizing this polish guy SWEARING (upon his holy texts and family) that he/she has NEVER downloaded afile (movie, music or book...) AND never copied a file (DVD, CD, mp3, ..., that were lent and not bought previously) AND has NEVER used an illegal pdf/mp3/video/music file.
I consider myself as an honest person :
- We have (wife & I) lots of books (RPG or not, D&D RPG being ODD, D&D, AD&D 1 & 2, D&D 3.0, 3.5 and D&D 4E, TSR/WOTC or other publisher), CD's, DVD's,
- We have NEVER downloaded illegal material (be it music, movie or book) since we do not like that, and I like to collect "solid" stuff,
- We own more than 250 RPG adventures / box / books / other various material and maybe more than that (second hand or new) [technically I do own them since she doesn't play], more than 600 "bought" CD's and maybe more than that (likewise) , more than 700 DVD's and maybe more than that (likewise) and more than 300 various art books / pocket books / comics (mostly "european" comic books) and maybe more than that (likewise),
- HOWEVER : I know that we own about 12-15 copied CD's (I guess about 2% of all our CD's, anyway that is illegal ; no copied DVD's though ; at least 8-10 of those copied CD's would be bought by us if we could find them at a reasonnable price though), I know that I do own a CD-rom with about 6-7 adventures from a publisher that were bought by someone else but he copied them for me since I could not find them (but I am still looking to BUY them if I find them for a reasonnable price).
So, even being honest (I guess, and my friends consider me as an honest man), having bought so much items & products, I could not swear being TOTALLY on the "good" side of the fence between legal/illegal.
OK, now for something completely different (sorry to leave the trail) :
Think about this (regarding CD's and DVD's) : you buy an item, you are told it is a great product, you then happen to know this product won't last more than 8-10-12 years (nobody can really tell).
I feel that if in several years, I had to buy everything again, this would be dishonest from the entertainment major companies, even stealing my money : I know people who have 30-40 years old vynil discs, I own books that are 80-90 years old, and now, I am told nothing will last more than a decade ?
Moreover, maybe there won't be any player capable of reading my DVD's ?
If I chose to download every movie I have on DVD, (and only those) because I paid for them and I want to still be able to watch them in a few years, would I be a pirat, a stealer, dishonest ?
If I chose not to, but found that my DVD's are "dead" in 5 years, what would you think ?
Who is stealing in that case ?
I'm not sure anyone is criticizing the defendant's alleged actions from a moral standpoint. Rather, there's a good amount of discussion from a legal standpoint, and some pragmatic advice about what to do when you find yourself dealing with a lawsuit (i.e., talk to a lawyer instead of trying to win your case on Enworld).
Vocenoctum
First Post
I'm not sure if that's true. He said on page 1 that
"I decided to buy electronic copies and borrow it inside the club the same goes with many e-magazines. Up to now i was sure that i know my players well. Anyway borrowing books for personal use between family, friends or other close ppl is legal in Poland and whole EU."
He doesn't draw a distinction between pdf's and paper books, does Polish law?
The comparison isn't to lending a paper book to someone, the comparison is to taking your paper book, photo copying it for 3+ others and giving them copies. Is THAT legal under Polish law?
Heck if I know, but it just seems like the original poster makes some big assumptions and presents them as facts.
Either way, I doubt he'll have a real penalty, since they'd need to bring the case there, just pointing out that we don't know for sure.
Private International Law
For those interested in these matters, the interplay between US and Polish jurisdiction in a case like that is much more complicated than what has been mentioned in previous posts and is determined by a fascinating part of the law called private international law.
In a case like this, assuming that WotC does sue in the US, the answer will depend on both US private international law and then Polish Private International Law.
At first, according to the US law, the US court will decide whether it considers it has jurisdiction or not on the matter and which law it will apply (a US court could apply Polish law for example or vice-versa). This will depend on things like the presence or not of an election of forum and election of law clause in the PDF purchase contract, on where according to US law an internet copyright infringement is located (in the country where the file is uploaded or where it is illegally downloaded ?) etc.
Assuming the US court takes jurisdiction, nobody will force the defendant to appear (this is a civil matter not criminal), but if he fails to do so, he takes the risk of an ex parte judgment.
If the defendant has assets in the US, then the matter would end there since WoTC could seize these assets in the US if they obtain a favourable judgment.
If not, then WotC needs to enforce this US judgment in Poland and then this starts an entirely new process which can vary greatly depending on Polish private international law and its leniency or not about the enforcement of foreign judgment, baring the existence of a particular treaty between US and Poland (or EU). Usually, these laws will not allow the enforcement of a foreign judgment which goes against Polish public order (which may be the case if the acts of copying are legal in Poland for example) or if the US award is based on what is called "Loi de Police" i.e. laws that are in nature more of public policy than true civil matters according to the view of Polish law and a Polish court. This is the case of tax laws for example which are very rarely enforceable in foreign jurisdiction and Penal awards based on a local law, such as copyright violation are often susceptible to this line of attack as well and may not be enforceable except for the actual damages caused rather than a statutory amount. It all depends on the exact Polish laws and jurisprudence.
All of this to say that it can get quite complicated and that is why WoTC will likely seek a settlement since its goal is likely more to make an example than to recoup any real money and also why the OP, once and if he really his served with the suit, should seek local legal advice....
Hope this was not too boring for you guys ;-)
For those interested in these matters, the interplay between US and Polish jurisdiction in a case like that is much more complicated than what has been mentioned in previous posts and is determined by a fascinating part of the law called private international law.
In a case like this, assuming that WotC does sue in the US, the answer will depend on both US private international law and then Polish Private International Law.
At first, according to the US law, the US court will decide whether it considers it has jurisdiction or not on the matter and which law it will apply (a US court could apply Polish law for example or vice-versa). This will depend on things like the presence or not of an election of forum and election of law clause in the PDF purchase contract, on where according to US law an internet copyright infringement is located (in the country where the file is uploaded or where it is illegally downloaded ?) etc.
Assuming the US court takes jurisdiction, nobody will force the defendant to appear (this is a civil matter not criminal), but if he fails to do so, he takes the risk of an ex parte judgment.
If the defendant has assets in the US, then the matter would end there since WoTC could seize these assets in the US if they obtain a favourable judgment.
If not, then WotC needs to enforce this US judgment in Poland and then this starts an entirely new process which can vary greatly depending on Polish private international law and its leniency or not about the enforcement of foreign judgment, baring the existence of a particular treaty between US and Poland (or EU). Usually, these laws will not allow the enforcement of a foreign judgment which goes against Polish public order (which may be the case if the acts of copying are legal in Poland for example) or if the US award is based on what is called "Loi de Police" i.e. laws that are in nature more of public policy than true civil matters according to the view of Polish law and a Polish court. This is the case of tax laws for example which are very rarely enforceable in foreign jurisdiction and Penal awards based on a local law, such as copyright violation are often susceptible to this line of attack as well and may not be enforceable except for the actual damages caused rather than a statutory amount. It all depends on the exact Polish laws and jurisprudence.
All of this to say that it can get quite complicated and that is why WoTC will likely seek a settlement since its goal is likely more to make an example than to recoup any real money and also why the OP, once and if he really his served with the suit, should seek local legal advice....
Hope this was not too boring for you guys ;-)
Nikosandros
Golden Procrastinator
I personally find this kind of explanations very interesting.
Lonely Tylenol
First Post
Agreed. This has been a very educational thread.
Are we on the same forums?
There's been countless people on this and the other threads trying to beat people with the morals stick. Meanwhile, I'm scratching my head and trying to remember if the same thing happened when cd burners came out. Surely those heralded the end of the music industry...?
Or VHS tapes. Good god man, anyone can take your tape and recopy it onto another! Why even bother having video rental stores - or hell, why bother having videos at all?!
I don't know . . . maybe I'm just skimming the stuff that seems unimportant.
Whether or not any of us agree with copyright laws, there are such things.
Whether or not it's fair that Mr. Radzikowski is getting sued, for the time being, he's getting sued.
Maybe he's done nothing morally wrong, maybe he's done nothing legally wrong . . . for the time being, he's a defendant.
I'm gonna bow out of this thread . . . Rad, one last time: don't talk about this to anyone but a lawyer.
avin
First Post
I think World of Warcraft is using a special Torrent client for downloading its patches.
fissionessence
First Post
Yep. And if it's going slow (because their software doesn't play well with firewalls and routers; and it just generally isn't seeded well), you can use 'regular' torrent sites to get the same PERFECTLY-LEGAL files.
It's also reasonably frequent for artists to make their work available for free through torrent channels. For example, local musicians who want to get the word out will post up their own albums, and I have several adventures from a D&D 4E player who posted the modules he wrote up onto torrents.
~
Michael Dean
Explorer
That's a nice broad slam on the US, and also incorrect. In fact, recent Supreme Court decisions make me believe some of our misguided Justices are mistaking international law for US law, but I digress.
Mostly from this thread (and others) I see non-lawyers making broad pronouncements of the law in which they really don't know what they're talking about.
The posts from people saying that it's a complicated process of first obtaining jurisdiction over the defendant, then getting a judgment, and then trying to see if it has any effect through Polish law are the closest to being correct.
But I don't think that's WOTC's endgame here, anyway. More likely there are strategic considerations involved on their part that probably play a bigger role than actually getting, and collecting on, a judgment. This could be a shot-across-the-bow move by WOTC, for example, with them firing on the first people they were able to determine had uploaded based on the watermarks. Whether that's viable or not is certainly questionable and open for debate, but WOTC certainly doesn't think they are going to collect millions from a few individuals in Poland or the Phillipines.
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