I'm not sure anyone is criticizing the defendant's alleged actions from a moral standpoint. Rather, there's a good amount of discussion from a legal standpoint, and some pragmatic advice about what to do when you find yourself dealing with a lawsuit (i.e., talk to a lawyer instead of trying to win your case on Enworld).
My name is "Defendant Radzikowski"
I'm not sure anyone is criticizing the defendant's alleged actions from a moral standpoint. Rather, there's a good amount of discussion from a legal standpoint, and some pragmatic advice about what to do when you find yourself dealing with a lawsuit (i.e., talk to a lawyer instead of trying to win your case on Enworld).
Vocenoctum
First Post
I'm not sure if that's true. He said on page 1 that
"I decided to buy electronic copies and borrow it inside the club the same goes with many e-magazines. Up to now i was sure that i know my players well. Anyway borrowing books for personal use between family, friends or other close ppl is legal in Poland and whole EU."
He doesn't draw a distinction between pdf's and paper books, does Polish law?
The comparison isn't to lending a paper book to someone, the comparison is to taking your paper book, photo copying it for 3+ others and giving them copies. Is THAT legal under Polish law?
Heck if I know, but it just seems like the original poster makes some big assumptions and presents them as facts.
Either way, I doubt he'll have a real penalty, since they'd need to bring the case there, just pointing out that we don't know for sure.
Private International Law
For those interested in these matters, the interplay between US and Polish jurisdiction in a case like that is much more complicated than what has been mentioned in previous posts and is determined by a fascinating part of the law called private international law.
In a case like this, assuming that WotC does sue in the US, the answer will depend on both US private international law and then Polish Private International Law.
At first, according to the US law, the US court will decide whether it considers it has jurisdiction or not on the matter and which law it will apply (a US court could apply Polish law for example or vice-versa). This will depend on things like the presence or not of an election of forum and election of law clause in the PDF purchase contract, on where according to US law an internet copyright infringement is located (in the country where the file is uploaded or where it is illegally downloaded ?) etc.
Assuming the US court takes jurisdiction, nobody will force the defendant to appear (this is a civil matter not criminal), but if he fails to do so, he takes the risk of an ex parte judgment.
If the defendant has assets in the US, then the matter would end there since WoTC could seize these assets in the US if they obtain a favourable judgment.
If not, then WotC needs to enforce this US judgment in Poland and then this starts an entirely new process which can vary greatly depending on Polish private international law and its leniency or not about the enforcement of foreign judgment, baring the existence of a particular treaty between US and Poland (or EU). Usually, these laws will not allow the enforcement of a foreign judgment which goes against Polish public order (which may be the case if the acts of copying are legal in Poland for example) or if the US award is based on what is called "Loi de Police" i.e. laws that are in nature more of public policy than true civil matters according to the view of Polish law and a Polish court. This is the case of tax laws for example which are very rarely enforceable in foreign jurisdiction and Penal awards based on a local law, such as copyright violation are often susceptible to this line of attack as well and may not be enforceable except for the actual damages caused rather than a statutory amount. It all depends on the exact Polish laws and jurisprudence.
All of this to say that it can get quite complicated and that is why WoTC will likely seek a settlement since its goal is likely more to make an example than to recoup any real money and also why the OP, once and if he really his served with the suit, should seek local legal advice....
Hope this was not too boring for you guys ;-)
For those interested in these matters, the interplay between US and Polish jurisdiction in a case like that is much more complicated than what has been mentioned in previous posts and is determined by a fascinating part of the law called private international law.
In a case like this, assuming that WotC does sue in the US, the answer will depend on both US private international law and then Polish Private International Law.
At first, according to the US law, the US court will decide whether it considers it has jurisdiction or not on the matter and which law it will apply (a US court could apply Polish law for example or vice-versa). This will depend on things like the presence or not of an election of forum and election of law clause in the PDF purchase contract, on where according to US law an internet copyright infringement is located (in the country where the file is uploaded or where it is illegally downloaded ?) etc.
Assuming the US court takes jurisdiction, nobody will force the defendant to appear (this is a civil matter not criminal), but if he fails to do so, he takes the risk of an ex parte judgment.
If the defendant has assets in the US, then the matter would end there since WoTC could seize these assets in the US if they obtain a favourable judgment.
If not, then WotC needs to enforce this US judgment in Poland and then this starts an entirely new process which can vary greatly depending on Polish private international law and its leniency or not about the enforcement of foreign judgment, baring the existence of a particular treaty between US and Poland (or EU). Usually, these laws will not allow the enforcement of a foreign judgment which goes against Polish public order (which may be the case if the acts of copying are legal in Poland for example) or if the US award is based on what is called "Loi de Police" i.e. laws that are in nature more of public policy than true civil matters according to the view of Polish law and a Polish court. This is the case of tax laws for example which are very rarely enforceable in foreign jurisdiction and Penal awards based on a local law, such as copyright violation are often susceptible to this line of attack as well and may not be enforceable except for the actual damages caused rather than a statutory amount. It all depends on the exact Polish laws and jurisprudence.
All of this to say that it can get quite complicated and that is why WoTC will likely seek a settlement since its goal is likely more to make an example than to recoup any real money and also why the OP, once and if he really his served with the suit, should seek local legal advice....
Hope this was not too boring for you guys ;-)
Nikosandros
Golden Procrastinator
I personally find this kind of explanations very interesting.
Lonely Tylenol
First Post
Agreed. This has been a very educational thread.
Are we on the same forums?
There's been countless people on this and the other threads trying to beat people with the morals stick. Meanwhile, I'm scratching my head and trying to remember if the same thing happened when cd burners came out. Surely those heralded the end of the music industry...?
Or VHS tapes. Good god man, anyone can take your tape and recopy it onto another! Why even bother having video rental stores - or hell, why bother having videos at all?!
I don't know . . . maybe I'm just skimming the stuff that seems unimportant.
Whether or not any of us agree with copyright laws, there are such things.
Whether or not it's fair that Mr. Radzikowski is getting sued, for the time being, he's getting sued.
Maybe he's done nothing morally wrong, maybe he's done nothing legally wrong . . . for the time being, he's a defendant.
I'm gonna bow out of this thread . . . Rad, one last time: don't talk about this to anyone but a lawyer.
avin
First Post
I think World of Warcraft is using a special Torrent client for downloading its patches.
fissionessence
First Post
Yep. And if it's going slow (because their software doesn't play well with firewalls and routers; and it just generally isn't seeded well), you can use 'regular' torrent sites to get the same PERFECTLY-LEGAL files.
It's also reasonably frequent for artists to make their work available for free through torrent channels. For example, local musicians who want to get the word out will post up their own albums, and I have several adventures from a D&D 4E player who posted the modules he wrote up onto torrents.
~
Michael Dean
Explorer
That's a nice broad slam on the US, and also incorrect. In fact, recent Supreme Court decisions make me believe some of our misguided Justices are mistaking international law for US law, but I digress.
Mostly from this thread (and others) I see non-lawyers making broad pronouncements of the law in which they really don't know what they're talking about.
The posts from people saying that it's a complicated process of first obtaining jurisdiction over the defendant, then getting a judgment, and then trying to see if it has any effect through Polish law are the closest to being correct.
But I don't think that's WOTC's endgame here, anyway. More likely there are strategic considerations involved on their part that probably play a bigger role than actually getting, and collecting on, a judgment. This could be a shot-across-the-bow move by WOTC, for example, with them firing on the first people they were able to determine had uploaded based on the watermarks. Whether that's viable or not is certainly questionable and open for debate, but WOTC certainly doesn't think they are going to collect millions from a few individuals in Poland or the Phillipines.
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