D&D 5E My New Players Have Quit 5th Edition

[Gilwen]

deleted because I misread the original surprise thread

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

This is just my opinion, but the idea that 1st-level characters are horribly fragile should vanish. High-level characters select or are forced to confront more dangerous situations. Maybe if 1st-level PCs are attacking Tucker's Cave or the Evil Overlord's Castle they shouldn't last long, but I don't see why taking on the 1st-level Less-Than-Competent Kobolds is somehow more dangerous than mid-level heroes taking on mid-level challenges or high-level heroes taking on high-level challenges.

 

[Mouseferatu]

This is just my opinion, but the idea that 1st-level characters are horribly fragile should vanish. High-level characters select or are forced to confront more dangerous situations. Maybe if 1st-level PCs are attacking Tucker's Cave or the Evil Overlord's Castle they shouldn't last long, but I don't see why taking on the 1st-level Less-Than-Competent Kobolds is somehow more dangerous than mid-level heroes taking on mid-level challenges or high-level heroes taking on high-level challenges.

Gotta learn somewhere. If lvls 1 and 2 are apprentice levels, the characters aren't just low level, they're amateurs. Someone just learning a skill/job/whatever is going to have a harder time of it than an expert would have even with more advanced challenges. It's difficult to master the basics enough to move on and become the expert.

 

[keterys]

Still: that as you advance in level, facing greater and greater threats... that it gets _easier_ feels backwards.

I'd not have minded if D&D made both a nod to escalating stakes _and_ attracting new players by patching the whole "wow first level sucks" phenomenon. So it goes, though. It's certainly D&D-like not to do so.

 

[dd.stevenson]

Still: that as you advance in level, facing greater and greater threats... that it gets _easier_ feels backwards.

I'd not have minded if D&D made both a nod to escalating stakes _and_ attracting new players by patching the whole "wow first level sucks" phenomenon. So it goes, though. It's certainly D&D-like not to do so.

Sincere question: do we have any evidence that TTRPGs with somewhat weaker first level characters (relative to the monsters) suffer a drop off of new players sticking with the game?

 

[keterys]

Sincere question: do we have any evidence that TTRPGs with somewhat weaker first level characters (relative to the monsters) suffer a drop off of new players sticking with the game?

I don't believe anyone has been tracking that closely for TTRPGs.

Though, it is a fairly natural inference from any model where this is a totally plausible first session:
1) Spend a while making a character (modern game systems often take far too long to create a character)
2) Die before taking an action (surprise, high damage roll, crit, any number of things)

Certainly, video games which do actually track such data trend towards easing newbies into lethality or make lethal results require doing something stupid, rather than just being unlucky.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't believe anyone has been tracking that closely for TTRPGs.

Though, it is a fairly natural inference from any model where this is a totally plausible first session:
1) Spend a while making a character (modern game systems often take far too long to create a character)
2) Die before taking an action (surprise, high damage roll, crit, any number of things)

Certainly, video games which do actually track such data trend towards easing newbies into lethality or make lethal results require doing something stupid, rather than just being unlucky.

I agree with you.

My first PC 37 years ago pre-AD&D was a Magic User (I think that was the name of the class those days). He had one spell. Sleep. We had one encounter where he did nothing. We then got teleported out of the dungeon to the middle of a road. We walked down the road and got ambushed from the hills on either side by "natives". He put the ones on the one hill asleep. He got shot in the back with an arrow from the other hill and died. At least in those days, you rolled stats and hit points, picked one spell and were ready to move on. Even gear was mostly just writing some down on a piece of paper.

Surprisingly, I continued to play. Possibly because it did not take me a half hour or more to create a 1st level PC.

 

[dd.stevenson]

I don't believe anyone has been tracking that closely for TTRPGs.

Though, it is a fairly natural inference from any model where this is a totally plausible first session:
1) Spend a while making a character (modern game systems often take far too long to create a character)
2) Die before taking an action (surprise, high damage roll, crit, any number of things)

Certainly, video games which do actually track such data trend towards easing newbies into lethality or make lethal results require doing something stupid, rather than just being unlucky.

Personally, I don't think (1) and (2) above are particularly good characterizations of 5E, or that video game research can be applied straight up to the TTRPG market.

But there is for sure an interesting conversation to be had about what kind of risk (as opposed to difficulty) new players like to experience, if only we had anything other than anecdotes to work with. If any guidelines ever become available on this topic I'll be tickled pink!
[MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION]

 

[jadrax]

My first PC 37 years ago pre-AD&D was a Magic User (I think that was the name of the class those days). He had one spell. Sleep.

Luxury!

My first RoleMaster Mage rolled a 99 on his spell list skill and had no spells at all. The first encounter the party crossbow man used him as a sandbag for cover. Out of combat he was forced into the role as the part mule. Eventually he was eaten by a hungry troll. And because it was RoleMaster, character generation took several hours just to work out skill bonuses.


And if you tell kids that today, they don't believe you.

 

[theopacman]

There is nothing quite like introducing two new players to 5th Edition and having their pregenerated characters die in the surprise round of the 1st encounter without getting to take any actions.

No I will not start a campaign at 3rd level.
No I will not fudge numbers.
No I will not play monsters stupidly.
No I will not award Clerics with bonus actions to keep allies alive.

That is one thing I specifically asked. I asked for a higher starting hit point variant. ..was denied.

It's a free choice and no one is stopping you from continue to play 4th ed or any other game system you think works better for you and your friends.