My Opinion of WOTC's Digital Initative and the current events

[(contact)]

When even industry professionals have a terrible time using the game, it's time for a fix. There can either be a complete overhaul of the rules (a fourth edition, as the OP describes, with far, far less crunch) or the game rules can be put online. It's one or the other.

Or you can disallow 2/3rds of the non-core books.

 

[(contact)]

getting high with your frat buddies and playing Halo does *NOT* make you a gamer!

Whu . . . it . . . it doesn't?

(cries)








(gets high)

(plays Halo)

 

[Hussar]

If the WOTC DI has a learning curve that looks anything like PCGen, it will be an utter failure. While I'm sure that PCGen can do what I want it to do, I have neither the time, knowledge nor intestinal fortitude to make it so. PCGen is great when you work with existing toolsets. It sucks rocks if you try to create your own material unless you are already conversant with the program.

That is NOT what a tool should be IMO. Campaign Cartographer is a perfect example as well. It's an incredibly powerful tool. Far more than what you need. Compare CC to Dunjinni and you find a much less powerful tool, but one that is more than good enough for 99.9% of the gamers out there.

Why design for that .1%?

 

[freebfrost]

Why design for that .1%?

And yet to make an online tool that can handle the sheer amount of data and options, you need that. Unless you are radically simplifying the choices available, or the underlying ruleset.

Either you get a shoddy product that is inflexible and incapable of handling a large number of options, or you get a good product that has a unified ruleset (i.e. the 4E theories).

I don't see how you can quickly produce a good 3.x product online that will be as flexible and powerful as consumers would like. And that leads me back down those paths.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Freebfrost - I just tried to code in my Binder into PCGen. It's not as easy as you make it out to be. Sure, changing minor cosmetics in an existing class doesn't take long. Entering an entire new class is a major amount of work that I'm just not willing to devote.

Not owning ToM I'm only passing familiar with the Binder but it seems like it would be a simple matter of adding one template for each Vestige, putting a level restrictor on the Vestige and a check to keep a Binder from using two enemy Vestiges. You could also code them up as Temporary Bonuses, like spells, that get added as needed but I'm not sure if you could pull off the exclusions.

The tricky part is the character sheet. You'd wind up with umpteen variations at the table depending on which ones you have bound. Kind of like the Druid(shifter) IMG; he has a character sheet for each animal form.

 

[ShadowDenizen]

Some even went so far as to say that 4th edition character generaion could exclusively be online. Both these scenarios I was disagreeing with. I am not saying that D&D can't have tools like that, just that it can not offer that as the only option for players or they will hurt their market.

I agree. (Surprise, surprise!)

I don't think the future of D+D is digital, though it may (and, in fact, probably SHOULD) be a COMPONENT of it. A charcter-generator online could prove useful in the extreme for those who use a lot of the supplemental material and sourcebooks, (or the mathematically-challenged, like me!!).

But it should be just that; supplemental! It should NEVER replace the pen-and-paper, throw your dice version of chargen. (Hence my lobbying for rules simplification.)

On a (semi)related note: I've played and DM'ed for many years.
Recently, (within the last 5-7 years or so) I've come across two "breeds" (if you will), of DM's; those who use online materials, and even a laptop, during play.
And those who eschew computer use during the game.

And, (in my experience) there's surpsingly little cross-pollination between the two.
So, I think WizBro would be best served by attempting to service both breeds, which SHOULD be a feasible possibility.

But their best course of action would be to emphasize what makes D+D unique, exciting, and challenging, and what DIFFERENTIATES it from MMORPG's, not what makes it SIMILAR to them.

(Just for the record, for those interested, I should note that, even prior to this week, most of my D+D purchases were/are OGL/3rd party material, or setting-specific material. I buy comparatively little from WizBro.

I should also note that I am dismayed by WizBro's actions [or at least, their actions as I perceive them] WRT Paizo, and the Dragonlance license., and don't have a particular interest in the D.I. for the most part.

But I don't want to see D+D fall by the wayside because of foolish, ill-advised, or ill-percevied actions, either!)

 

[Najo]

I agree. (Surprise, surprise!)

I don't think the future of D+D is digital, though it may (and, in fact, probably SHOULD) be a COMPONENT of it. A charcter-generator online could prove useful in the extreme for those who use a lot of the supplemental material and sourcebooks, (or the mathematically-challenged, like me!!).

But it should be just that; supplemental! It should NEVER replace the pen-and-paper, throw your dice version of chargen. (Hence my lobbying for rules simplification.)

On a (semi)related note: I've played and DM'ed for many years.
Recently, (within the last 5-7 years or so) I've come across two "breeds" (if you will), of DM's; those who use online materials, and even a laptop, during play.
And those who eschew computer use during the game.

And, (in my experience) there's surpsingly little cross-pollination between the two.
So, I think WizBro would be best served by attempting to service both breeds, which SHOULD be a feasible possibility.

I agree. For example, you can keep Dungeon and Dragon as in-print magazines (like Monte Cook pointed out) for the advertising alone, plus they bring in revenue from advertisers (which likely paid for the magazine on its own I am sure). The content in the magazines could then be placed on the digital initiative as a alternative to having printed material for those customers who want them. Same work, more profit from advertisers, no angry mobs and the benefit of the online versions (searchable content?).In fact, I could see people subscribing to the magazines and the online versions to if they had additional features.

But their best course of action would be to emphasize what makes D+D unique, exciting, and challenging, and what DIFFERENTIATES it from MMORPG's, not what makes it SIMILAR to them.

The post above speaking about corpse runs in MMOs I think is a key area D&D can differ itself from MMOs. Most MMO players do not know about D&D and what it offers. They do not know how to start playing, and they do not want to because of all the upfront work of learning a complicated game, getting people together, planning adventures and running them. They are never shown the magic of the game, the imagination and excitement involved. The trick is making all that happen without taking away the depth and choices for the advanced gamers, which all of your players eventually become. That is what makes D&D a lifestyle and a hobby. The depth of the game.

If I was in charge of the D&D brand I would make sure the core rules were streamlined and accessible (as we been talking about), that you use the online to support the community and give options to the player base. I would find a way to build our DMs up, improve them, then turn the outgoing ones into outriders (that go out and promote the game to new players) likely with a cool incentive program. Then I would make sure that every D&D release gave players more choice that they want, that the books encourage imagination and that they were easy to find rules within. It all comes down to the visual design approach. I have read plenty of material on marketing and graphic design, and know that there are ways to achieve presenting complicated information in easy manners or organizing material for players to find easier.

Finally, I would bring back the settings. Dark Sun, Planescape, Brightright, Spelljammer, Ravenloft. All of those are awesome if developed properly. I think D&D is missing the boat on official settings that are not your typical run of the mill fantasy. They try to cram everything into each of their worlds and they all feel similar because of it. I don't think you produce a lot of material for the settings, but a hardbound full-color core book and then OFFICIAL support online and in the Dragon and Dungeon would be enough. The more popular ones could get the ebberron and forgotten realms treatment.

 

[ShadowDenizen]

Finally, I would bring back the settings. Dark Sun, Planescape, Brightright, Spelljammer, Ravenloft.

Wow!
This is getting silly.
Again, I agree.

I think that a smaller run of releases would be feasible, and wouldn't truly fracture the core group of players. (With much of the Planescape cosmology already integrated into the "Core" material, I'd love to see a revised "Planescape" campaign setting, in particular.)

Maybe 2-3 print releases a year for each setting, and some onlione "supplemental info"? Most collectors should be able to keep up with that rate of release. (As a personal example: I gave up on collecting "Eberron" some time ago, because of the cost and the rapid release schedule, but I still collect everything "Midnight", because of the more accessible price-point and rate of release.)

The online fanbase (esp. the Dark Sun and PLanescape communites) are a wealth of quality information and knowledge; I"d love to see their material integrated and acknowleged into 3.5 or 4E.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Najo, first let me say that even though I don't know you, I respect your thoughts. Your posts are a joy to read. Keep 'em going!

I was saying that D&D needs better organized and streamline rules, fewer barriers to entry whereever possible and easy to show off the value Pnp offers a new customer without making them learn a text book of rules right out of the gate. The current setup of the basic game and phb/dmg/mm does not accomplish any of this.

Okay, that's what I want to comment on. My posts about the DI (including the necessity for an online character generator/rules database *option*) are based on the current ruleset. A lot of what I'm seeing from you, while terrific ideas, cannot be entirely accomplished with D&D 3.5E.

Sure, one can hire better UI experts to redesign the character sheet and book layout. You can add a glossy pullout "quick start" section to the PHB, or a new Basic game. But streamlining rules (like in SW SAGA) and fundamentally altering mechanics requires an entire new edition.

I agree that a new edition is needed, relatively soon. 3.5E is pretty bloated--the Complete series added metric tons of new content. It's mostly good content, but all that stuff is beyond manageable at this point.

The post above speaking about corpse runs in MMOs I think is a key area D&D can differ itself from MMOs. Most MMO players do not know about D&D and what it offers. They do not know how to start playing, and they do not want to because of all the upfront work of learning a complicated game, getting people together, planning adventures and running them. They are never shown the magic of the game, the imagination and excitement involved. The trick is making all that happen without taking away the depth and choices for the advanced gamers, which all of your players eventually become. That is what makes D&D a lifestyle and a hobby. The depth of the game.

This is why I want to see an optional D&D, Online. By that I mean a virtual tabletop, with little minis, a turn-based battle system that can handle attacks and integrates with the online character database, terrain tiles for the DM to place, etc. etc. Compare to D&D Online, which is a D&D-flavored MMO. I'd rather play the former.

Getting together face to face is increasingly hard as your audience ages. Jobs, significant others, kids, and housework make it hard for two people to get together--let alone five. MMOs (and Xbox Live) flourish because you can get home, logon, and game with all your buddies from the comfort and convenience of your home.

To lower the barrier of entry, you've got to give a curious potential customer the chance to try D&D without requiring him to find 1) an experienced player, and 2) 3 other people. To do that best, you've got to give the potential customer a way to play the game alone, via some sort of online demo that they can try alone.

Something like this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/mini_demo/DNDMinis.asp

A lot of the joy of D&D is derived from the face-to-face nature of tabletop: hanging out with friends, eating pizza, rolling funny dice. D&D as we've know it isn't going away. But to attract new users--in particular, the millions who play RPGs online--I think it'd be a smart move to provide an online "virtual tabletop" option for D&D.

-z

 

[Najo]

Najo, first let me say that even though I don't know you, I respect your thoughts. Your posts are a joy to read. Keep 'em going!

Thank you. I enjoy your posts too.

Okay, that's what I want to comment on. My posts about the DI (including the necessity for an online character generator/rules database *option*) are based on the current ruleset. A lot of what I'm seeing from you, while terrific ideas, cannot be entirely accomplished with D&D 3.5E.

I agree with you entirely.

I agree that a new edition is needed, relatively soon. 3.5E is pretty bloated--the Complete series added metric tons of new content. It's mostly good content, but all that stuff is beyond manageable at this point.

My main concern with this comment, is it means 4th edition is likely being worked on or is done even. It also feels like WOTC would close off the d20 license, which I feel would be a mistake. They can't take back the OGL, but they can keep people from putting on their book that D20 logo and the statement "requires the use of the 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons Players Handbook". One of the creepiest things with the Piazo and WOTC split is Pathfinder states on it that is is for use with the "leading fantasy role playing game" or something to that effect, and not what I stated above. Question posed to Erik Mona is Pathfinder going to be released under the d20 License and if not how come? Hopefully he can answer that.

I know that was a tangent, but to bring it back around, WOTC could close the D&D compatibility with 3rd party publishers, and this would be a mistake I think. All products bring people back to D&D and the more support and choice, the more players and DMs will continue playing. WOTC can't do it all and the D20 license keeps everyone playing in D&D's sandbox instead of each having their own systems.

This is why I want to see an optional D&D, Online. By that I mean a virtual tabletop, with little minis, a turn-based battle system that can handle attacks and integrates with the online character database, terrain tiles for the DM to place, etc. etc. Compare to D&D Online, which is a D&D-flavored MMO. I'd rather play the former.[/quote

Yes, I think DM tools one computers are great. I think that these are all good ideas. My main point was they can not be exclusive to the digital format. You want D&D to naturally flow to the gather the friends together or new players are less likely to get created. It is one thing to have friends get separated and then play over the internet. But new people are not likely to discover role playing this way. I think online communities like this one are people who already play and come together and then maybe discover online roleplaying options. New players rarely find roleplaying this way.

Let me lay it out how I see it should be:

Mainstream D&D Brands - good, fun movie/ D&D novels (which are there)/ D&D video games (mostly there)/ a decent MMO. - these get new customers into the brand.

Intermediate Brands - Easy to use PHB, DMG and MM. Online content and DI. Magazines. D&D miniatures, but find a better way to get people playing this as a game on its own. There should be organized approach and better appeal to the quick play wargame market. D&D basic game redo that makes it more like the boardgames coming out of days of wonder, fantasy flight etc. Market the D&D board game to the mainstream and hobby store.

Hobby Brands - D&D add on books. Accessories like maps, tiles, adventures, software tools. Sanctioned DM program that encourages outreach, tie in to hobby stores, and gives DMs involved special rewards they can get nowhere else.

I would use the settings too. They could be advertised as 'A dungeons and dragons world setting' So you can go back to releasing all this material for the settings I mentioned above in the intermediate and hobby levels. The only mainstream level would be the novels and video games, but not the mmo.

Getting together face to face is increasingly hard as your audience ages. Jobs, significant others, kids, and housework make it hard for two people to get together--let alone five. MMOs (and Xbox Live) flourish because you can get home, logon, and game with all your buddies from the comfort and convenience of your home.

To lower the barrier of entry, you've got to give a curious potential customer the chance to try D&D without requiring him to find 1) an experienced player, and 2) 3 other people. To do that best, you've got to give the potential customer a way to play the game alone, via some sort of online demo that they can try alone.

I think D&D needs to find a way to get 10-14 year old kids to play it. They have time, they are face to face and if you do it online they are not going to pay attention. You have to show them how it is better than playing online. Those kids that would be playing D&D (ie all of us if we were kids now) are playing WOW and Counterstrike, or other online games somewhere between those too. Making D&D copy WOW or putting it online in a form cool to us, but not them will not get new customers. You have to bottle the magic and excitement we all felt playing it back before computer games were visually more engaging. You have to market the power of the imagination. You can't do it by laying out like figures and dice and maps and saying here you go.

You do it by saying:

'As the three of you walk down the path, you feel a chill in the air and notice the forest has become silent. Ahead, you see two hulking figures standing at the foot of the bridge. The shadow and mist obscures them, though they seem to notice you. You stop, hoping they haven't seen you, then they come forward in tattered clothes each carrying a broken tree limb as a club. Twice the height and four times the bulk of a man, the creatures peer down at you with a venom in their eyes. Then one speaks through its broken, yellow teeth. It's acrid breath washing over you "Soft morsels bring gold or meat? Pay us and we let you live, perhaps yessss? Else you be meat...."

DM: What do you do?'

That is what D&D is, and what it should teach. That is how you get kids out of the video game and behind dice at a table. On other thing, video game show everything. That is the big deal, basically the special effects of the graphics card. but some of the most intense and best movies show less to engage the audience more, Jaws being a prime example. D&D's strength is in the allowing players imaginations to fill in the gaps. Video Games take that away, more and more too as they get better visuals.

A lot of the joy of D&D is derived from the face-to-face nature of tabletop: hanging out with friends, eating pizza, rolling funny dice. D&D as we've know it isn't going away. But to attract new users--in particular, the millions who play RPGs online--I think it'd be a smart move to provide an online "virtual tabletop" option for D&D.

-z

We are on the same page, just coming from different angles. I am looking at it as a business should...i.e. how do I get more customers? How do I get new kids playing D&D? My concern is that WOTC is failing to see some of these key things as a lot of their business decisions are always experimental. It feels like they are coming at D&D wrong, looking at it as veteran D&D players and the whole kick in the door of the dungeon approach. That is a viable play method, but it needs to be able to grow into more. It needs to capture the interest and imaginations of new audiences. D&D has always been about cutting edge fantasy and pushing the boundaries on worlds and ideas. It has brought together amazing talent and concepts both within the companies and the customer bases. The best creative works I have ever seen originate in this hobby, and that is why I love it and why I want to get to publishing and working with a creative team full time. It is why I started our store and won't stop until we have perfected it. I know what makes this industry tick because I love it more than anything (except my family of course).

To me, gaming is an entertainment medium with its appeal in how it engages its customers actively. It is not passive, it does not tell you one story or make you play one way. It involves you, allows you to express with your ideas, allows you to experience creative work with your friends in a non-repeatable manner. It is a form of art and fun brought together. The best works are brilliant, the worst of it is terrifying (like the D&D movie ) and somewhere in the middle is most of people's games. Everything you do to bring in more players and elevate other people's experiences and make D&D (and other games in general) faster to get into that experience the better this whole industry is for it.