My rant on Energy Substitution.

[Voadam]

From the SRD:


I would have thought the presence of a bard in an opposing party would cut down on the number of sonics? And what about the effect of a silence spell?

But in general I agree with the rant. I don't know what it is about Energy Subsitution. But I don't so much mind when it relates to fire, cold, or lightning. But when people start talking about acid or sonic it bugs me for some reason.

Focusing on just fire for firebolt and fiery grasp and cone of fire seems fine for making an elemental mage, same with electricity or cold. Becasue these are sort of fantasy elements we might read about or think up for a story. Acid and sonic are more types of things you would expect in SF as opposed to fantasy and fit better in dragonstar than Greyhawk IMO.

For fighting monsters there is a big advantage in going sonic in that many outsiders have resistances to fire and maybe acid, electricity or cold but no classic types have sonic resistance, and demonic bards are just not that common or devilish clerics with silence spells.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Firstly, can I state that none of the three (!) PC wizards took Energy Substitution.

I envy you. You get three players who like wizards, and I can't for the life of me convince anyone in my group that wizards are worth playing. They think it's such a restriction to have to memorize spells. *sigh*

 

[LordAO]

I don't see what all the fuss is over. The Bard has almost all sonic spells, and he is considered balanced. The energy substitution feat just gives magic users more flexibility.

The truth is that most players aren't going to know what the enmy is weak/strong against. Wizards must choose the element to be used at the time of preparation, Sorcerers have to spend a full round action to cast it. And if they throw sonic spells at everything, have those creatures use items or spells which protect against sonic damage.

My group plays in the FR and one of our characters is an archmage and has Mastery of the Elements (which is in every way better than energy substitution!). Mastery of Elements doesn't need to be prepared (or take a longer casting time) and can be ANY element. Yet, we haven't seen much of a balance problem. If anything, it encourages players to be creative with how they use their spells.

So sonic spells are generally effective because few creatures are resistant to them. So what? How many living creatures are resistant to Horrid Wilting? And believe me, Horrid Wilting is much worse than any other damaging spell in the game! (and there's nothing that protects against it!)

 

[Someone]

Yes a cold blast is possible, but difficult to manage.
1) Spontaneously generate a super cold gas.
Imagine if you will, a 1000 gallon tank of liquid nitrogen exploding due to pressure. THAT is a cold blast. Magic just makes getting the liquid nitrogen dispersed in the air that mush easier.

2) Run a highly endothermic reaction.
Possible but difficult to manage. Sucking up that much heat usually means that the products are way higher energy than the reactants, so normal thermodynamics says this type of reaction is not favored. There are tons of reactions that follow non-standard kinetics. I'll due some more research.

3) Expansion of a gas.
This is how your air conditioner works. High pressure liquid expands to gasses. If the total energy of the system is to remain constant, since energy cannot be created or destroyed unless you are hurting reality's brain by going REALLY fast, the energy comes from the average kinetic energy of the molecules. This is observed as a drop in temperature.

Add 4) Use a liquid substance with a low boiling point to cover the target. The pass from liquid to vapor will drain heat. That´s the main reason of sweating.

I know an anecdote about point 1. In a university, someone (not I) forgot a closed recipient with liquit nitrogen a friday. The recipient was left undisturbed for the entire weekend, and even it reached boiling temperature and beyond, it didn´t passed to vapor for cinetic reasons. Early in the morning of the next monday, a truck passed nearby, and the vibrations finaly made the state change possible; more exactly, happen at a faster rate. Lot faster.

BOOOOM.

 

[Hammerhead]

God forbid that anyone should spend a feat to gain a useful advantage.

 

[Bonedagger]

God forbid that anyone should spend a feat to gain a useful advantage.

I think you missed the point.

 

[psionotic]

Sonic not that great

Sonic is no better than the other elements, and in some ways worse. While I agree that too few things have resistances to sonic energy, the flipside is that you can do double damage with most of the other energy types against the right opponent.

Take your average fire giant. A cone of cold will kick his arse if he fails his save. A cone of sound just does regular damage to him.

Not to mention that (by a literal interpretation of the rules) all sonic effects are blocked by a simple and common 2nd level spell.

And whoever thinks that the full round action doesn't cost a sorcerer has perhaps not played one recently. The Sorc is all about 'haste' and the ability to cast two spells a round. Casting 0 spells the first round so you can cast 2 on the second makes many metamagic feats worthless to them.

In the myriad campaigns I play in, fewer than half of the wizards and sorcerers are taking energy substitution as a feat, and those that are do it mainly for style (the themed spellcaster). Overall, I think its fine as written.

 

[Hammerhead]

I think you missed the point.

Which one, the "sonic attack spells are excessively powerful" one or the "damage elements should have some flavor associated with them" one?

I agree that a sonic attack should have different flavor and secondary effects. I like how the Orb spells in Tome and Blood each have a different secondary effect based on the element.

However, there is an interesting quirk to sonic attacks. Normally, elemental damage is halved against objects. Sonic damage, however, still does full. A Sonic-substituted evocation will probably rip up an inch or two of stone over the entire area of effect, and would destroy most objects. A powerful mage or two casting a few sonics each round would rip up the environment in short order. While characters often won't care about the effects, they might use something else if they'll have to pay dwarven stonemasons to repair all the blasted 40 ft circles in their new fortress.

 

[Bonedagger]

Which one, the "sonic attack spells are excessively powerful" one or the "damage elements should have some flavor associated with them" one?

Hmm... The first one was not exactly what I meant. I think that Energy Substitution makes Sonic into something it should not be. I don't think sonic wasn't supposed to be that powerfull. It seems normal to me that when you make a sonic attack it will also have side-effects (e.g. deafening) These side-effects should not be ignored but added to the spell-description. That would make the sonic spell a higher level according to "the golden balance rule" (Don't have a DMG right here ) unless the damage was lowered or some other compensation was made.

As I said. I think Shout is a good example.


Note: There might have been published some supplements with powerfull sonic spells I don't know about.

 

[Fenes 2]

A sorcerer can easily use haste and metamagic feats - just cast a metamagicced spell and a normal spell, like a fighter would use a full attack and his hasted aditional attack.