My rant on Energy Substitution.

[Kibo]

Microwaves are also high frequency sound waves, just way outside of anythings hearing range (other than a microwave receiver). I cannot find anything saying that Sonic is vibrational kinetic energy.

You're thinking of ultrasound. Microwaves are most definately elctromagnetic. I would highly recomend you consult a physics text before responding.

 

[Ace]

I envy you. You get three players who like wizards, and I can't for the life of me convince anyone in my group that wizards are worth playing. They think it's such a restriction to have to memorize spells. *sigh*

<slight thread jack>
An easy way to get people to play Wizards is to drop the spell scribing cost.

With the added fees to scribe spells a wizard is at a severe penalty in gear terms compared to a sorcerer.

Also IMO a fair number of GM's fail to have enough enemy mages with spell books available to capture, spells for sale or other sources of spells

IN addition, being dependant on a spell book is a gigantic hastle. It leaves the character open to all sorts of trouble if the GM feels like screwing with them.

Also, while the Sorcerer only get 5 spells per level that is enough variety for many games.

FWIW No one in the games I have played in even looks at the Wizard any more.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

energy substitution sonic is cool for one reason the damage isn't 1/2ved vs objects. The lack of resistences is more than balanced by the multiple eay to access absolute protections around like bards and silence spells.

as for energy admisture why would anyone not allow that piece of crap spell. empower is vastly better, heck so is twin spell.

 

[Al]

I think Shout is a good example.

Good for you. I think Shout is an awful example.

Did *any* of my three PC wizards ever even put Shout in their spellbook, let alone memorise it? No.

Did a single of any of my NPC wizards ever even put Shout in their spellbooks? No.

Is Shout a respectable 4th level spell, one that is in line in terms of power with the other spells of its level? No.

Is it therefore a 'good example'? No.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I do think a different flavor or secondary effect with the elements *would* be cool....

But to me this is much ado about nothing.

"Boo-freakin'-hoo, my monsters can't resist your energy!"

Stop the simpering. What kind of goony mage would bother to fireball a demon or devil anyway? Shouldn't research be available to the cleric on the common ways to dispose of the outsiders?

Also, sonic isn't all it's cracked up to be. Bards, silence spells, whatever...there's a lot of ways to get around it.

The feat isn't overpowered.

It could benefit from more added flavor, yeah. I'd like to see that. But it's not an essential, and isn't all that hard to balance. Half damage plus one secondary effect depending upon the element:

*Fire: Catch on fire on a failed save
*Cold: Become paralyzed on a failed save
*Acid: Damage repeats next 2 rounds on a failed save
*Electricity: Damage also dealt to those within 10 ft. of target area
*Sonic: objects you hold must also save or be destroyed on a failed save

....or something similar.

I dunno. Sorry for being snippy, but it's not that superb of a feat. I like it because of versatility.

 

[Hikaru]

We can cook chicken by shining a really high energy flashlight, but I have never seen an idea for an oven based on shaking the chicken really fast.

Need... to... breathe....

 

[Seule]

To the party who hates wizards and loves Sorcerers: When my party comes up against a new challenge that I don't have the right spell for, I can go to the local Wizard's guild, and purchase said spell. I can then cast it as many times as I want for free. When I apply Metamagic to my spells, it doesn't make them take longer to cast. I get each level of spells one level earlier. My prime stat is also the one I use both to determine how many skill points I get per level (14 now), as well as for every skill I have raised other than Concentration. I also have all Knowledge skills as Class Skills, enabling me to qualify for most mage Prestige Classes at near half the level, as most of them require significant ranks in Knowledge (The Planes).
Why would anyone ever play a Sorcerer?

Okay, so I've considered trying a Sorcerer in another campaign, but mostly because nobody I know has seriously tried to get a Sorcerer to higher levels. They just seem far far too limited. Make one poor choice at lower levels and you will regret it forever.

This is not intended to be a slam on Sorcerers, I just find it interesting how different groups see the various classes. My groups value the Wizard's advantages more, and your group likes the Sorcerer.

To keep this on topic, my character is a 16th level Air Elemental Savant. He has Energy Substitution Electrical and Sonic both, and has recently picked up Energy Admixture Sonic. I'm having fun being a Thunder and Lightning mage. Lightning Balls admixed with Sonic energy may not be the most effective combination, but they are sure both fun and in theme for me. Plus, after having used 3 feats on my Elementals, shouldn't I be able to do some cool stuff?

--Seule / Ashimar of the Winds

 

[smetzger]

You're thinking of ultrasound. Microwaves are most definately elctromagnetic. I would highly recomend you consult a physics text before responding.

You are correct. I tend to picture in my mind Frequency Bands wether they are AM, FM, Microwave, VHF, UHF, etc as high frequency sound; which is not correct. I stand corrected.

Back to the Sonic descriptor. I can't find any description of what exactly Sonic is in the D&D books. Under special abilities in the MM we get a description of the effects and that stopping ones ears is good against mind effecting but not damaging sonic attacks. Therefore turning to the dictionary:
Sonic 1. Of or relating to audible sound: a sonic wave. 2. Having a speed approaching or being that of sound in air, approximately 738 mph at sea level.

So, it would seem that Sonic attacks are audible. Are blast concusions audible? If not, perhaps damaging Sonic attacks hits the eigenvalue of the target.

 

[Kugar]

Originally posted by smetzger
So, it would seem that Sonic attacks are audible. Are blast concusions audible? If not, perhaps damaging Sonic attacks hits the eigenvalue of the target.

Ok, I'm an engineer. I took matrix algebra. I know what an eigenvalue is. I didn't think I actually had one. How do I figure out my eigenvalue?

The perplexed Kugar

 

[takyris]

Good for you. I think Shout is an awful example.

Did *any* of my three PC wizards ever even put Shout in their spellbook, let alone memorise it? No.

Did a single of any of my NPC wizards ever even put Shout in their spellbooks? No.

Is Shout a respectable 4th level spell, one that is in line in terms of power with the other spells of its level? No.

Is it therefore a 'good example'? No.

That's because your PCs would rather go with splatbook spells that give Sonic spells the same damage level as other elements, despite the fact that few if any core monsters have resistance to it and it does normal damage to objects. If I had the choice of Shout, a sonic damage spell as it was originally intended, and Sonic Orb, a splatbook spell that ignores the greater power of Sonic damage, yeah, I'd definitely go with Sonic Orb.

That doesn't mean Shout sucks. It means that Sonic Orb is absurdly overpowered unless you rule that Demons and Devils get Sonic resistance, too.

Why, when all the other elemental-damage weapon effects are 1d6 elemental damage for a +1 cost, or 1d6 normal and 1d10 on a critical for +2 cost, does Thundering carry a +2 cost and only do 1d8 on a critical? Because it deafens, too, works better on objects, and because hardly anything is resistant to Sonic energy.

Don't base your logic on what YOU and YOUR players did when asked to choose between a Core spell and an overpowered Tome & Blood spell. That's like saying, "Yeah, I could have taken Fireball, a 3rd level spell that does 1d6/level, but why would I want that when compared to Heatsphere from this other d20 book? It's 3rd level, does 1d8/level, and does an additional 1d4/level the following round. Fireball is so totally underpowered!" No, Fireball was balanced. The other one wasn't.

-Tacky