Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[Aloïsius]

Re: Re: Re: Dont know if anyone's mentioned..

OK. Once again, the argument: "yes, compared to a raw cleric, it's weak, but compared to a raw wizard, it's strong".

Too me, this only means one thing: If you're going to disallow a class that is weaker than a cleric because it's too powerful, then, the cleric, who is more powerful, is even more "too powerful", and thus needs to be forbidden also.

Cleric is broken ! Wizards got the shaft !

I can't wait for july, I think we will have a lot of fun.

 

[seasong]

EDIT: Yeah, I'm an idiot

At 20th level: Clr 3/Wiz 7/MTh 10

Spell levels = Clr 13 (7th level spells), Wiz 17 (9th level spells)
Since all other stats mirror Wiz, I will compare the class to a pure wizard and see what he loses/gains:

Same
- BAB (+10/+5 either way)
- Ref save (+6 either way)
- Toad familiar (who cares if he can talk, again?)

Loss
- increased familiar abilities (hp still go up by character level)
- 3 bonus metamagic feats

Gain
- Fort save (+8 base instead of +6)
- Will save (+15 base instead of +12)
- Hit Points (avg 60 instead of 50)
- Skill Points (slightly more gained from cleric levels)
- the ability to turn undead (though not strong)
- the ability to use decent weapons
- the ability to wear armor when it's really needed
- half of your spells don't suffer spell failure
- domain abilities (which typically do not scale with level)
- 1st through 7th level cleric spells, at a cleric's number/day

If the metamagic feats are important to you (and they should be), you will have 7 general feats with which to pick up the important ones.

 

[Aloïsius]

EDIT: Yeah, I'm an idiot

At 20th level: Clr 3/Wiz 7/MTh 10

Spell levels = Clr 13 (7th level spells), Wiz 17 (9th level spells)
Since all other stats mirror Wiz, I will compare the class to a pure wizard and see what he loses/gains:

Same
- BAB (+10/+5 either way)
- Ref save (+6 either way)
- Toad familiar (who cares if he can talk, again?)

Loss
- increased familiar abilities (hp still go up by character level)
- 3 bonus metamagic feats

you forget 3 wizard levels, which means :
*6 free known 9th level spell in your spellbook
*3 9th level wizard spell cast per day
*2 8th level wizard spell cast per day
*1 7th level wizard spell cast per day
*-3 to all check to overcome spell resistance
* 3 level less powerfull wizard spells (17d6 does not equal 20 d6)
*-3 effective caster level against dispel magic

Gain
- Fort save (+8 base instead of +6)
- Will save (+15 base instead of +12)
- Hit Points (avg 60 instead of 50)
- Skill Points (slightly more gained from cleric levels)
- the ability to turn undead (though not strong)
- the ability to use decent weapons
- the ability to wear armor when it's really needed
- half of your spells don't suffer spell failure
- domain abilities (which typically do not scale with level)
- 1st through 7th level cleric spells, at a cleric's number/day

If the metamagic feats are important to you (and they should be), you will have 7 general feats with which to pick up the important ones.

 

[kingpaul]

My biggest complaint is that I read the darn thing. I have an almost identical mechanic for a Legendary Class I'm designing for d20 Magazine Rack's contest. ::grumble, grumble:: stuip curiousity ::grumble, grumble::

 

[kingpaul]

AC: Wowza. As far as AC goes, this guy has all the benefits of both types of magic to keep him from being hit. Between Magic Vestment, Shield, Mage Armor, Haste, and everything else, his AC should skyrocket. Though this doesn't totally fix the problem of low hps (i.e. power words... suprise rounds... crits... etc), it generally can keep you far away from being hit.

Haste: +4 haste bonus to AC. This is under the current ruleset. I understand that its been revised in 3.5
Mage armor: +4 armor bonus to AC, which means its not stackable with any armor already worn, including bracers of armor, which also grant an armor bonus. You take the best
Magic vestment: grants enhancement bonus to armor worn. This means that the arcane caster side is probably going to have to deal with spell failure
Shield: 3/4 cover

Yeah, I can see where AC would get buffed a bit.

 

[seasong]

you forget 3 wizard levels, which means :
*6 free known 9th level spell in your spellbook
*3 9th level wizard spell cast per day
*2 8th level wizard spell cast per day
*1 7th level wizard spell cast per day

True enough. Although really, the number of spells per day at that level rarely matters as much as the type and power of the spells - that's partly why this class is balanced at the lower levels, because you trade power of spells for type of spells, and the number of doesn't matter as much.

*-3 to all check to overcome spell resistance
* 3 level less powerfull wizard spells (17d6 does not equal 20 d6)
*-3 effective caster level against dispel magic

Spell resistance: This is true. You will have an easy time with SR 22 instead of SR 25. The dice of damage, particularly with area effect spells, rarely seems to matter much at higher levels as much as the save or die spells, which are not significantly impacted.

Dispel magic is an excellent point - the Mystic Theurge is slightly behind the pure Wizard, and light years ahead of the multiclass Wizard.

 

[Henry]

you forget 3 wizard levels, which means :
*6 free known 9th level spell in your spellbook
*3 9th level wizard spell cast per day
*2 8th level wizard spell cast per day
*1 7th level wizard spell cast per day
*-3 to all check to overcome spell resistance
* 3 level less powerfull wizard spells (17d6 does not equal 20 d6)
*-3 effective caster level against dispel magic

Is this verified? I seem to recall that someone who gains +1 effective level still gains the 2 free spells.

In any event, this creates a spell user par excellance. Imagine a Clr 3 / Sor 7 / The 10 - you have created a mobile artillery platform that can heal. As a spell user, it is the AD&D cleric/wizard all over again.

Still, because the ONLY thing gained is the spell capacity, it's not quite as bad, especially since hit points are woefully weak (thank god they didn't give him d6.)

I don't worry about the 17d6 problem, because of maximized spell and empower spell.

If they REALLY wanted a divine/arcane caster mix, they could have made a prestige class that allows Arcane casters to pick up a certain number of divine spells per level to add to their repertoires.

 

[BryonD]

Is this verified? I seem to recall that someone who gains +1 effective level still gains the 2 free spells.

You are correct. But they still lose 6 spells because they are 17th spell caster level rather than 20th.

The more I read and the more I think about it, the more convinced I become that requiring only 2nd level spells as prereqs is to low, but that the screams of "wildly broken" are over reactions.

 

[Mercule]

Is this verified? I seem to recall that someone who gains +1 effective level still gains the 2 free spells.

I believe he was referring to the difference between an effective 17th level wizard (Clr3/Wiz7/MTh10) and a 20th level pure wizard. That difference would be 3 levels (the ones used for cleric).

 

[drnuncheon]

Gah. If you want a "god of magic", without any qualifications on the _type_ of magic in question, then that should be reflected in how magic works in the game world. That is, there shouldn't be any distinction between arcane and divine in the first place.

Why couldn't there be a god of arcane magic who granted his priests divine spells?

Hey, he's a god. Are you going to tell him 'no, your followers aren't allowed to heal people'?

J