Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[Technik4]

Ok, first of all I don't go for area dispels too often, only If I'm fighting say 6+ guys. Since if I'm the monsters (because Im DMing) and I'm fighting the PCs, and theres only 4 PCs, Im always going to cast a targetted dispel.

Obviously there was some wonky stuff going on with reactive counterspell and haste. You make a case for ring of counterspells. You were 15th level yes? Ok, Greater Dispel is what should have been used against you. And I believe it wouldn't really be a "chance" of greater dispel not getting rid of almost all of your buffs.

While Divine Power on your next round is a good option, it doesn't nearly make up for what you just lost in terms of double empowered 2nd level spells. And I'm guessing with all of those slots (6th level slots, your highest) spent on double empowered buffs you went way down in any fighter's estimation, especially since he could probably just disarm or sunder your now crappy +1 weapon.

As others have said, until you post some real data this is just theory-d&d. Your 3 sets of boots of haste was extremely suspect by many (I understand you didn't wear all 3 at the same time, but swapped them out. However, if you look closely boots of speed is based off of haste, haste will no longer allow extra actions, neither will the boots).

As someone pointed out, you can't Dimension Door then cast a spell, as it says in the spell.

True Strike requires a round to cast, then a round to strike. Intelligent enemies (ones who realize what spell you just cast, a spellcraft DC of what, 11?) will get far enough away from you to prohibit being attacked, or ready an action to attack if you attack them and try to disarm you. Wasted True Strike.

Even with 10 dispel magics memorized, you were abusing Reactive counterspell or you werent attacking as much as you lead us to believe. Also, if I cast Greater Dispel and you cast Dispel Magic to stop me, well good luck. You get a d20+10 to beat a 26 (11 + spellcaster level, lets assume it was an average encounter, level 15 spellcasting opponent). So on a 16 or better, you counterspell, on a 15 or worse, you are debuffed for the rest of the day. If this happens in the first encounter for the day, you are pretty screwed.

You are abusing buff spells, not the mystic theurge. Your friend's Finger-o-Doom doesnt seem nearly as powerful. Spectral Hand + Death Knell? Allow me to point out that Death Knell is an evil spell. So I hope he wasnt the one planning on curing everyone after a fight, since by casting evil spells that proves he is evil, and therefore a negative energy user. If he was neutral, by casting death knell every fight for many adventures, lets say the DM should have wrote him a little note. And death knell doesnt stack with death knell, and it means you have to leave a "living" creature with hit points lower than 0. So -1 to -10, most monsters get obliterated, destroyed, or hacked to death, so it seems pretty convenient to cast this spell every fight on the monster that just happens to be alive by that much.

So, I think you abused the hell out of boots of speed and to a lesser extent buff spells. Not the theurge.

Technik

 

[green slime]

Hear hear, Saeviomagy.

From what I've read, the playtest wasn't.

Strutinan, you have been repeatedly asked to give a full accounting of your character, from stats to spells and equipment, and details of the encounters, as well as your "powergaming" buddies' characters.

I doubt your powergaming buddies used any of the power builds such as the shieldbashing paladin, or the Archmage/Red Wizard/Specialist for compared to those builds the MT is just a bad smell in the wind... .

Secondly, I have nowhere read anything that suggests that your character achieved anything that couldn't have been handled by a singleclassed Cleric or Wizard. Or a well equipped fighter with friends. A better blow by blow account, rather than glossing over the details then saying "Woohoo! That was overpowered through the roof."

Thirdly, the number of stilled buffs you can afford to lose while facing for instance, a hovel of evil Clerics, is minimal. That is the advantage of the singleclassed character, they aren't reliant on their buffs, neither are the fighters. For the MT, they are his life support system. Without them, he is daisy fertilizer. And against standard anti-buff tactics he is hopeless.

What is he going to do about antimagic field?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Kamikaze Midget:
You mention the comparision to the Sorcerer. Let`s just compare a 16th level Sorcerer with a wizard3/cleric3/mystic theurge 10.

The sorcerer can cast:
6 spells (+bonus spells due to charisma) of 0-6th level, 5+bonus of 7th level and 3+bonus of 8th level.
He has only a limited selection, but he can cast it spontanously.

The Mystic Theurge can cast:

Spells like a 13th level cleric, meaning:
6 0-level spells, 5+Domain+bonus spells from wisdom of 1st or second level. 4+Domain+bonus spells from wisdom of 3rd and 4th level. 3+Domain+bonus spells from wisdom of 5th level, 2+Domain+bonus spells from wisdom of 6th level, 1+Domain+Bonus Spells from Wisdom of 7th level.

Spells like a 13th level wizard, meaning:
6 0-level spells, 5+school+bonus spells from intelligence of 1st or second level. 4+school+bonus spells from intelligence of 3rd and 4th level. 3+Domain+bonus spells from intelligence of 5th level, 2+Domain+bonus spells from intelligence of 6th level, 1+Domain+Bonus Spells from intelligence of 7th level.

So, the MT is behind 1 spell level compared to the sorcerer. But he as a near unlimited spell list (at least on the "cleric side").
But he can cast severely more spells per day:
6 level 0 spells (compared to 6)
10+2+bonus 1st and 2nd level (compared to 6+bonus)
8+2+bonus of 3rd and 4th level. (compared to 6+bonus)
6+2+bonus of 5th level (compared to 6+bonus)
4+2+bonus of 6th level (compared to 6+bonus)
2+2+bonus of 7th level (compared to 5+bonus)
0 spells of 8th level (compared to 3+bonus)

Other numbers (I hope I remember everything correctly):
BAB Mystic Theurge: +8/+3
BAB Sorcerer: +8/+3
HP MT: 3d8+13d4+ 16 x Con
HP Sorcerer: 16d4+16 x Con
Base Saves MT: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +13
Base Saves Sorcerer: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +10
Specialities MT: Scribe Scroll, 2 Domain Abilities, weak Familiar
Specialities Sorcerer: "strong" Familiar
Magical Items MT: Can use any Cleric or Wizard/Sorcerer Scroll / Wand / Staff (provided he has sufficient caster level / Ability score)
Can use special Cleric only/Wizard only items (Ring of Wizardry, Prayer Beeds and so on)

Magical Items Sorcerer: Can use any Wizard/Sorcerer Scroll / Wand / Staff (provided he has sufficiend caster level / Ability score). Can use special Sorcerer only items (like Ring of Wizardry - greater benefits than MT in this case))

Someone else may try to prove that losing a spell level for severely more spells/day makes the class balanced/shafted/broken (whatever he prefers)

I think it makes the class broken.

"Buffing": Most characters are dependent on some of these "buffs". A Mystic Theurge does not have to buff only himself (which is only interesting in smackdowns, not in a real adventure), he can buff the whole group. (10 level 2 spells allows 2 stat enhancers for everyone - without relying on other spellcasters! This frees also some item slots - why waste money on Gauntlets of Ogre Power? Or imagine the whole party wandering invisible through the dungeon, only attacking if absoluteley neccessary. Easy - but boring - game).

A Single Dispel Magic / Greater Dispelling doesn`t do much in this matter, because an area effected will only "kill" one of the spells, or weaken a single character.

Dispelling in combat is sometimes a good idea (especially if it is obvious that a single character has many spells cast on him), but not every enemy can "see" this automatically, and sometimes he might still prefer casting a real devastating spell at his enemies (like Cone of Cold, Disintegreate, Flamestrike, Fireball), because it`s not enough to cripple a single enemy, it is better to kill all of them...

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[green slime]

Good comparisson to the sorcerer, Mistrum_Ridcully. Never really looked at the effect on them, as noone ever seems to want to play a sorcerer IMC... Which is in part due to percieved lack of versatility. Something the MT would not seem to be wanting...

BTW, No party is going to wander through the dungeon in complete invisibility... The DC to know someone is around is only 20... And then you have the noise made by the tanks.

On occasion it happens. It still wouldn't be happening all the time. Not in my games at least.

 

[WizarDru]

I noticed alot of people making some "knee jerk" reactions to my playtest. Let me clarify a few things:

"3.5 Haste"
The playtest occured before we all found out that 3.5 Haste wasn't adding "a move or attack action" like it was originally described as doing. Still no two spells/round, but the extra attack allows for a spell/move/attack. For a buff-style character, that extra attack is the reason to take the spell (or item in this case)!

Someone has already pointed out that the new haste only grants an additional attack on a full-attack action. I don't think the reaction is 'knee-jerk', as you describe it. Your testing methodology was flawed, and we're pointing it out. I realize you may have put some large amount of time into the effort, but you admit yourself that you didn't have 3.5's Haste, let alone the dozens of other changes from 3.5 none of us have seen (well, except NDA-following folks like Piratecat ). At this point, you need to admit, "Hey, turns out our data was all wrong. We think the MT is broken, but our numbers aren't really valid anymore."

"Wands/Scrolls of Dispel Magic"
Oh come ON! Honestly, what character/NPC in his right mind would USE one of these things? The caster level is so gods-awful low that you might as well THROW the thing at the person! Add to this, would YOU as a player prepare a higher-caster level wand/scroll of a spell you will typically cast only on special circumstances? If so, then you might as well make high-CL wands of Tenser's Floating Disk too

We have a saying in my game: "Don't roll a 1.". BBEG's often can employ lots of little guys who tend to be rogues or low-level casters. The caster level IS awful....but the cost is virtually non-existant at the level being discussed. If I could hire ten Rog 2s to back me up with low-level scroll and wand-usage, how is that any more ridiculous than owning three pairs of Boots of Haste?

And for the record, YES, some players do exactly that. The wizard and cleric in my group sometimes prep a Ring of Spell Storing, scrolls and other minor items for the party rogue to use. The rogue acts as the 'monkey wrench' in the BBEG's plans. She has lots of tricks up her sleeve, and a high UMD lets her pull them off. Given the typical chance of a spell-caster to run up against other spell-casters (both for NPCs and PCs), I would hardly call DM/GD as a spell only cast on 'special circumstances'. Maybe in your game, the PCs don't encounter many enemies with magic or who can use spell-like abilities...but I would put forth that such a case is extremely rare.

The best argument I've heard against the MT is one that you missed or ignore, because your test appeared to be about doing the most damage. Namely, that Mr. Bufftastic can grant tons of buffs to the whole party...but by that point, your character was only buffing himself, so you either didn't observe that, or weren't interested in observing it.

"Dimension Door/Blade Barrier"
This was given as an example of wha the Finger-O-Doom character did. Also, it was Improved Invisibility/Door/Barrier+Hold Person, each on subsequent rounds. Lets not forget the old standbys of Improved Invisibility/Flight/Hold Person/Acidic Cloud and Spectral Hand/Bestow Curse or Inflict Wounds either!

Right, got that. Didn't catch where you pointed out why that wasn't wrong, as I pointed out earlier. Dimension Door ENDS YOUR TURN. Being hasted doesn't change that. The spell was written to prevent exactly what you're using it for. This is one of the indicators to some that you might not even have been following the rules properly, making your analysis of the MT even more suspect. Were any house rules in effect? What kind of point-buy or roll method was used? I can guarantee you that a MT wouldn't be terribly thrilling under 28-point buy, and maybe not that great under 32 point-buy, but I could be wrong.

Another thing to consider. Sooner or later, everyone rolls a 1. Hello, Bodak, goodbye Life. When the MT dies, he looses more than a normal character, too. And losing two spell-casting levels at higher levels would be more traumatic, I think. Lowered DCs are another problem. My direct experience of taking a party from 1st to 20th level, over the course of almost three years, shows me that what I thought was incredibly broken at 5th level was actually not nearly as powerful when you reached 15th level. IMHO, your test shows me more that we have you enjoy a much higher-powered game than some, and was more of a test of the MT in your game rather than in D&D, itself.

 

[green slime]

Spectral Hand is a weak spell at that level anyway, as any opponent that attacks the hand will destroy it, causing the caster to lose the hps on a more permanent basis.

Dimension Dooring in would be your surprise round, IMC. Better hope you roll a higher Initiative, or you won't be getting many spells off in the next round...

 

[WizarDru]

Spectral Hand is a weak spell at that level anyway, as any opponent that attacks the hand will destroy it, causing the caster to lose the hps on a more permanent basis.

Dimension Dooring in would be your surprise round, IMC. Better hope you roll a higher Initiative, or you won't be getting many spells off in the next round...

I usually see Dimension Door used in combat in one of two ways: the most popular is the "RUN! NOW! GO!" method, in which the wizard, usually grabbing the rogue and cleric, gets out of the line of melee fire, but fast. It's a way to escape injuries taken or imagined in the near future.

The second method is the "Hah! Lookit those suckers down there dance....Did you hear something?" method, in which the wizard, usually grabbing the rogue, moves under cover of stealth to suprise some distant or hard to reach enemies and teach them why it's a bad idea to not watch your back and to equate distance with safety.