Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[BryonD]

Re: Re: Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

Sorry, Mike, you are incorrect. Per Skip.

Psion is correct.

Gaining the two spells is considered part of gaining the wizard spellcaster level.

 

[Zappo]

What about an MT with Divine Power, Righteous Might, Stoneskin, Shield, and Tenser's Transformation? Maybe with Fly and Improved Invisibility thrown in for good measure... At high levels, many spells with a 10 minute/level duration last for hours.

I'd call that "on par"... Yeah, it'd take him time to buff up, and he can suffer greatly if Dispelled, but a cleric using anything more advanced than Bull's Strength / Endurance to buff himself in combat has the same problems. (well, fine, slightly less of a problem because his spells are harder to Dispel)

For starters, he's 3 levels behind so those 10 minutes/level all last a bit less. Btw, some of those spells last much less than that - definitely not enough to have them always up. Tenser's is 6th level and he isn't even getting it until 14th.

If he gets a Dispel he's screwed twice as much as another character, because of the high number of spells he keeps up and lower caster level.

Anyway, as I said I think the class is powerful at high levels, but is weak at low-to-medium levels. Even then, I can't say "how much" powerful or weak without playing it thoroughly but I strongly suspect that it won't be powerful enough to be "broken" or weak enough to be useless.

Thank god they're changing Haste in 3.5, with the 3.0 version of it, this guy would be completely absurd... All the advantages of being hasted, none of the problems - the "well, yeah, but with Haste you just blow through your spells twice as fast, and what are you left with" argument would no longer apply...

I agree. I never even quite believed the "you blow through your spells twice as fast" argument with regards to Haste for that matter...

 

[Storm Raven]

This is incorrect. The standard, boilerplate text for gaining additional caster levels via a prc is very particular about how a character only gains more spell slots and an increased caster level. The wizard's free spells per level is a major advantage compared to prestige classes and one of that class's core abilities. Those 7th, 8th, or 9th level spells are not cheap to scribe into your book.

Wrong. For example, look at the text from the Loremaster class (from the SRD):

This essentially means that she adds the level of loremaster to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.

[Emphasis added]

This is specifically addressed in the Main D&D FAQ, on page 12, right at the beginning of the "Prestige Classes" section, in the following question and response:

Question: I can't find any information about how many spells prestige class spellcasters know. I am going on the presumption that those that gain bonus spells per day of their existing class (such as loremaster and spellsword) do not automatically add additional spells to their spellbooks as they gain levels.

Answer: They do add spells to their lists. For example, a wizard/loremaster gains 2 spells for her spellbook when using a loremaster level to increase spellcasting. A sorcerer/loremaster would learn more spells as well. Adding spells to your spellbook or presonal repertoire is part of spellcasting.

Not only has this question been answered, but it has been answered with a response directly opposite your conclusion.

 

[Psion]

Okay I'll bite which one is Mike and what is he wrong about .?

Mike Mearls is wrong in his assertion that wizards don't gain new spells in their spellbook when they get levels in a class with continued spellcasting advancement.

 

[Joseph Elric Smith]

Mike Mearls is wrong in his assertion that wizards don't gain new spells in their spellbook when they get levels in a class with continued spellcasting advancement.

I saw the clarification, and thanks between my computer and my brain I often get confused on message boards
ken

 

[The Sigil]

Just to throw one more little twist into the discussion...

Would there be as much uproar if this were a 5-level PrC instead of a 10-level one?

--The Sigil

 

[Marshall]

Well, at first glance, it certainly seems excessive... however (bear with me for a second)...

What do you really gain?

You get a much expanded spell list, and roughly double the number of spells per day, at the cost of (at a minimum) one level of spell power.

What does the expanded spell list and double spells give you?

It gives you flexibility, and the ability to keep casting after other casters are out of spells. But how valuable is that? Certainly, I've played spell casters who ran out of good spells, but most often, the group retreats at that point, and the Mystic Theurge would likely have to as well.

And never understimate the value of that extra level of spell. As a spellcaster, you hate to be throwing 5th level spells when you're buddy the regular mage is tossing 6th level stuff around.

I'm not sure it isn't outrageous, but I'm not sure it is, either.

Ditto everything Kid said.

All the class does is make the WIZ/CLR multiclass as viable as the RNG/BRB or FTR/BRB or FTR/RNG yadayada.

 

[drnuncheon]

Just to throw one more little twist into the discussion...

Would there be as much uproar if this were a 5-level PrC instead of a 10-level one?

Probably not. You'd either wind up with the casting ability of a Wiz18/Clr7, or (if you wanted to go close to even) a Wiz13/Clr12. You'd also eliminate the possibility of taking it into epic levels - although Andy Collins seemed to suggest on his message board that the epic progression for the Mystic Theurge might not be what we think.

J

 

[Psion]

Just to throw one more little twist into the discussion...

Would there be as much uproar if this were a 5-level PrC instead of a 10-level one?

Hmmm...

I wrote:
As the problem with this class revolve around high levels, I'm thinking the best way to deal with this class would be to make it a 5-level class.

 

[Psion]

All the class does is make the WIZ/CLR multiclass as viable as the RNG/BRB or FTR/BRB or FTR/RNG yadayada.

See this post in the poll thread for why I do not think the situations are equivalent.