Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[green slime]

Irrelevant. To claim that this justifies the Class on that merit alone is wishful thinking; It's grasping at straws to justify a combo that you very much want. Otherwise, you wouldn't be argueing so vehemently over whether or not I would include this class in my campaign.

LOL!! You seem to have quite an inflated idea of your importance to me! But I do find your suppositions amusing, to say the least. Do what you will in your game. Have pink sky and faeries all over. You now have my official sanction to do just that.

This isn't a combo I desperately want for myself, I am the DM in all the games I run so I could give a rodents rear end about what you do in your games. For me, this PrC fills a need for certain PrC to be able to be adept at both Arcane and Divine spell casting, something which I have been looking for, without outshining the single classed characters. I feel this PrC does the job admirably. I will be adding certain flavour tweeks before adding to my campaign, but such tweeks happen to all classes before being allowed in.

Secondly, I was in NO WAY justifying the class on that "merit" alone! I was arguing against your supposition that something called Divine Lore could not exist in the game, after it was clearly pointed out it was meant as "flavour", but you got all tangled up in it being "Lore". And then you tried to point out that is was a game mechanic for wizards only, when infact "Arcane Lore" is just flavour!! LOL!

 

[Bendris Noulg]

LOL!! You seem to have quite an inflated idea of your importance to me! But I do find your suppositions amusing, to say the least. Do what you will in your game. Have pink sky and faeries all over. You now have my official sanction to do just that.

Well, thanks. I guess I'll sleep better at night.

This isn't a combo I desperately want for myself, I am the DM in all the games I run so I could give a rodents rear end about what you do in your games.

Then why try to disprove a stance that is so obviously correct?

For me, this PrC fills a need for certain PrC to be able to be adept at both Arcane and Divine spell casting, something which I have been looking for, without outshining the single classed characters.

Two things:

1. Don't confuse your "want" for a "need" of the game.

2. It does outshine single classed characters, for reasons already given.

I feel this PrC does the job admirably.

If you like over-powered Spellcasters, sure.

I will be adding certain flavour tweeks before adding to my campaign, but such tweeks happen to all classes before being allowed in.

Well goody. At least we agree on something.

Secondly, I was in NO WAY justifying the class on that "merit" alone! I was arguing against your supposition that something called Divine Lore could not exist in the game, after it was clearly pointed out it was meant as "flavour", but you got all tangled up in it being "Lore".

I didn't say it didn't exist. I'm saying that there's no pre-existing reason within the rules for such to produce such an over-powered class.

And then you tried to point out that is was a game mechanic for wizards only, when infact "Arcane Lore" is just flavour!! LOL!

Actually, Wizards have a need for Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcane) that far exceeds any other class (Spontaneous Casters and faith-powered priestly types) in such a dependancy (learning and researching). Therefore, "Arcane Lore", while a flavorful name, is actually a mechanic within the game. What been done is change the name ("Divine Lore" instead of "Arcane Lore") and use that name change (with no related mechanic) to justify a crappily designed class.

 

[Joseph Elric Smith]

2. It does outshine single classed characters, for reasons already given.

that for you it seems over powerful, or broken is fine. Don't; use it in your game. Different games have different styles, and not every one tries to min max their characters. In My last 3rd edition DD&D game I modified both Sorcerers and Wizards,and several people told me the sorcerer was too powerful and every one would play them and they would rule the game. Well in my game only one player picked a sorcerer and 90% of his spell selection was either support or utility, as that was how he envisioned his character.
That is the reason why prestige classes are option, because they might not fit every ones style.
Ken

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

You know, I've watched this whole arguement. Playtested it 9 ways to Sunday, and come to this conclusion...

Why should Wizards stick only to the minimalist, low magic crowd? Why can't they put a couple of powerful PrC's in the DMG. Powergamers and Munchkins buy books too.

Personally, all this arguing on whether or not it is balanced is all relative.

I could fit it. I mean, seriously, I killed it 9 times out of 10 when I was trying to.
It wouldn't fit in the Ravenloft campaign, because it would be the party catch-all. I mean, give it Open Locks & Disable Device,a nd it takes the place of 3 PC's.

So what if it is overpowered for your tastes. You aren't the only one buying books. Others like it, and who are we to throw stones because WotC felt like adding a powerful PrC to thier books.

Seriously, guys, this is starting to look silly...

"My dad can beat up your dad!"
"Can not!"
"Can too!"
"Can not!"
"Can too!"
etc etc bleh....

So some of you don't like it, some do.
You can't make everyone happy all the time, and only a weak-willed, no spined fool tries to....

 

[green slime]

Posted by
Two things:

1. Don't confuse your "want" for a "need" of the game.

2. It does outshine single classed characters, for reasons already given.

1. Sorry, I thought it was implicit in that sentence, given the context: A need IN MY GAME. Not really, really need like water/shelter survival stuff, but it fits in a certain place, which had been providing me with a certain conundrum as to how to solve. And this suited my "needs". Simple enough?

2. Not everyone agrees with you, even after your points have been put forth more eloquently by others. It outshines them in one area, but is left wanting in another. Like many other PrC. How you value those areas is entirely subjective.

 

[Michael Tree]

Then why try to disprove a stance that is so obviously correct?

It's obviosuly correct? Sheesh, why didn't someone say so! It would have saved so much time!

Sorry Johnathan Tweet, Sorry Andy Collins, you should know that you're obviously wrong!

Bendris, if it were so obvious, there wouldn't be dozens of pages of people debating back and forth. There wouldn't be game designers on both sides of the fence giving their reasoned analyses and decisions. Please spare us the "I'm the only rational one here, everyone who disagrees with me is either a munchkin or an idiot" arrogance.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Please spare us the "I'm the only rational one here, everyone who disagrees with me is either a munchkin or an idiot" arrogance.

Oh, that's so true. I'm wrong. Everyone that loves this class is right.

Gee, it's so clear now.

 

[EricNoah]

The entire premise of this forum is that rational people can disagree. Please, folks, be respectful of each other.

 

[Michael Tree]

Oh, that's so true. I'm wrong. Everyone that loves this class is right.

Gee, it's so clear now.

If someone asserted that, I would criticize them just as harshly. I do apologize for the line that you quoted though. I meant it to be ironic, but it came across as hostile.

I don't neccessarily even think you're wrong about the MT. I personally think that it might be overpowered, but would like to playtest it before making a decision. However, it's hardly obvious whether it is. There are many good arguments on both sides.

It's interesting to have discussions about whether a class is balanced or not, and why. It isn't interesting when one person is so absolutely assured of their own position that they won't even grant the possibility that the opposite side may have some valid points.

 

[Azlan]

Whence from the term "theurge", anyway? Is that related to the term, "thaumaturge"?

I'm reminded of a Wormy cartoon I saw in a Dragon magazine, many years ago. The scene is a wintry, snow-covered landscape. A winged, Lammasu-like, comely female creature asks the imp character, "Are you a thaumaturge?" And he replies, "Sure! You thaw mine, and I'll thaw yours."

Whatever that meant...