Joseph Elric Smith
First Post
that can be said of most any classBendris Noulg said:
ken
Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!
- Thread starter Mark Chance
- Start date
ken
green slime
First Post
Bendris has posted:
"That you agree with him and not me has obviously effected your judgement in the matter."
I'll take your comments to be of about the same worth.
Gee, it's so clear now.
Otherwise, you wouldn't be argueing so vehemently over whether or not I would include this class in my campaign.
I can't help but believe that this pathetic piece of munchkin crap ...
Interesting how the "role" related material in a role-playing game is referred to as a "waste" of paper.
No. To me, you have had a few points which I can respect. However I do disagree with your conclusion. By your reckoning, that makes me a munchkin idiot. I'm wasting your time and making a fool of myself. To me, you have come across as having very superior airs. Probably due to overuse of the "rolleyes" (
), and the problems of interfacing through this media. Or maybe I am a munchkin idiot and deserve a fate worse than that imaginable by man. 
YMMV. What ever.Enjoy your game.
Bendris Noulg
First Post
See, you're learning already.green slime said:
Lead a horse to water...
No one's a munchkin until they actually join your game and ruin it. As for the idiot part, that's something people prove themselves without any one else pointing it out.
When you make things up on the fly (Divine Lore) to justify this class (comparing it to Arcane Lore, which does have a mechanical purpose), and expect me to bow down to it, yes, have are and have.
Any superiority I may express is likely the result of an inferiority complex.
I give what I get.Probably due to overuse of the "rolleyes" (
I have no problem interfacing through this media. I do have a problem being told that I must accept someone else's standards and wants, especially when those standards are self-imposed and those wants are expressed as "needs" within the game system.
See earlier munchkin comment.
But of course!
drnuncheon
Explorer
Bendris Noulg said:
...meanwhile, while the MT is spending every feat it gets in a desperate attempt to shore up its weaknesses, the wizard is spending the same number of feats - plus some extra feats - i9n increasing its strengths.
The fact that you don't have any calculations suggests to me that your analysis is somewhat suspect. A great many people claimed that the ELH's Enhance Spell was never worthwhile and would always be beaten by multiple Empowers + Improved Metamagic, but they were wrong. (Many of them refused to believe it even when they were shown the real numbers, but that's beside the point.)
Build the character, trying to shore up its weaknesses with the feats you described. Then realize that your single-class casters could take those exact same feats (more in the case of the wizard), thus maintaining the level of difference - so the MT hasn't even caught up to them. Alternately, they could take other feats, broadening their capabilities beyond what is possible for the MT.
J
Bendris Noulg
First Post
Actually, I didn't think that, and (then as now) I didn't need calculations to see it.drnuncheon said:
Except I don't see these as actual weaknesses. After all, what are we talking about here? A +3? One trip to the Min/Max Board will show characters getting modifiers that make the +3 difference a completely irrelevant factor into the upper levels. And while I don't permit such things in my game, the fact that such is a truth within the system is why I view this class the way I do, and will continue to do so.
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Mystic Theurge vs. Eldritch Master
I don't mind the MT, in fact I will probably play one when I get the chance (possibly specializing in creating magic items). The loss of turning, feats and familiar advancement is pretty bad.
Most people seem concerned about the Epic MT, but you should take a look at the Eldritch Master. 1-20, EM is not very dangerous as it gives up spell levels by getting only 3 better spell levels known (and only one spell for each). At epic level EM is probably the most dangerous Sorceror PC available.
Over 10 levels you gain the following:
+10 caster levels
Detect Magic at will
10 1st Level Spells known
8 2nd level Spells known
3 Epic Metamagic Feats
3 Increased Spell Capacity
3 Free Spells known of any level
3 Spell Diettantes - Choose one other spell list to pick spells from
Powerful Presence - +2 Diplomacy & Intimadate, 1xday force all living beings in 30' to make a Will Save(DC 10+EM level+Cha) or be -2 on attacks, saves and skill for 1 round/EM level.
Knowing Stare -1 x day, the EM can invoke a 30-foot gaze attack that holds all living creature. Those affected must make a Will Save (DC 10+EM level+Cha) or be held for 1 round/EM level.
Mastered Name - The EM can sense when another being speaks his name. The EM knows the exact location and name of the speak, the awareness is sufficient to allow the EM to scry as if she had just met the individual (DC 10). It does not convey enough info to allow the EM to teleport to the speaker’s location.
My EM has chosen Psionic spells, Divine Spells and I am still undecided on the third. My Sorceror and his familiar (remember familiars can share spells) walk around with Persisted Divine Power, Shield, Shield of Faith, and some 15 other spells up.....He also has Ablating (+6 vs. Dispel attempts), SR that is out of this world, can Dimension Strike, has Fate of One and saves that are just scary. People fear my dire ferret familiar (I took Improved Familiar feat because it felt wrong having a regular ferret do THAT much damage!)
Also, I have taken Multispell and Automatic Quicken Spell x3 for tons of spells a turn. No one ever expects to die at the paws of a familiar....
I don't mind the MT, in fact I will probably play one when I get the chance (possibly specializing in creating magic items). The loss of turning, feats and familiar advancement is pretty bad.
Most people seem concerned about the Epic MT, but you should take a look at the Eldritch Master. 1-20, EM is not very dangerous as it gives up spell levels by getting only 3 better spell levels known (and only one spell for each). At epic level EM is probably the most dangerous Sorceror PC available.
Over 10 levels you gain the following:
+10 caster levels
Detect Magic at will
10 1st Level Spells known
8 2nd level Spells known
3 Epic Metamagic Feats
3 Increased Spell Capacity
3 Free Spells known of any level
3 Spell Diettantes - Choose one other spell list to pick spells from
Powerful Presence - +2 Diplomacy & Intimadate, 1xday force all living beings in 30' to make a Will Save(DC 10+EM level+Cha) or be -2 on attacks, saves and skill for 1 round/EM level.
Knowing Stare -1 x day, the EM can invoke a 30-foot gaze attack that holds all living creature. Those affected must make a Will Save (DC 10+EM level+Cha) or be held for 1 round/EM level.
Mastered Name - The EM can sense when another being speaks his name. The EM knows the exact location and name of the speak, the awareness is sufficient to allow the EM to scry as if she had just met the individual (DC 10). It does not convey enough info to allow the EM to teleport to the speaker’s location.
My EM has chosen Psionic spells, Divine Spells and I am still undecided on the third. My Sorceror and his familiar (remember familiars can share spells) walk around with Persisted Divine Power, Shield, Shield of Faith, and some 15 other spells up.....He also has Ablating (+6 vs. Dispel attempts), SR that is out of this world, can Dimension Strike, has Fate of One and saves that are just scary. People fear my dire ferret familiar (I took Improved Familiar feat because it felt wrong having a regular ferret do THAT much damage!)
Also, I have taken Multispell and Automatic Quicken Spell x3 for tons of spells a turn. No one ever expects to die at the paws of a familiar....
green slime
First Post
Except I didn't make things up on the "fly". It was meant as flavour text by another poster, and came across as (flippant) flavour text (therefore the wink after the comment), but YOU instantly got on your high horse and said it had no place in the game.
Knowledge (religion) which could be ascribed as "Divine Lore" has a place in the Epic rules; it affects the number of Epic Spells an Epic Divine Spellcaster can cast. Flavourwise it is still divinely inspired spellcasting.
I never expected you to bow to anything, just to let JayOmega have his flippant comment, rather whipping out the PHB and whipping his rear end with the book. Instead you accuse me of "wasting your time" and "making a fool of myself". IMO, you started wasting your own time by answering to JayOmega's remark.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
To hopefully negate this end of the argument:
The difference is that wizards certainly *need* a kind of lore to learn new spells...and clerics can generally live their entire lives without bothering a musty tome. A mutliclass cleric/wizard only needs wizard lore, so to speak...facts, traditions, beliefs, and knowledge on the arcane and occult. This increases their wizard abilities. But their cleric abilities don't need to have lore -- they could get them just by rubbing a polished holy symbol at night...
Now, the flavor for Mystic Theurges would tend to indicate that they are interested in the priestly version of Lore, even if they don't have to be. They want to acquire facts, traditions, and beliefs about divine magic and mysticism. They want to acquire knowledge thruogh education and experience (on divine and philosophical matters).
THERE. The MT has flavor. It's a priest interested in divine lore. And since lore is the bread and butter of a wizard, that also helps the wizard side. It sees even arcane magic as an instrument of the divine.
Now, how good that flavor is, is largely a matter of (I guess) whether you like the PrC or not....
Okay. Now we have definitions of Theurgy and Lore. We've shown that the MT has some flavor (at least as much as the Fighter class does...
). Everything after this point is largely personal opinion and cannot be proven, so I think the conversation will go a lot smoother if we don't try. 
(Apu)Thankyoucomeagain!(/Apu)
The difference is that wizards certainly *need* a kind of lore to learn new spells...and clerics can generally live their entire lives without bothering a musty tome. A mutliclass cleric/wizard only needs wizard lore, so to speak...facts, traditions, beliefs, and knowledge on the arcane and occult. This increases their wizard abilities. But their cleric abilities don't need to have lore -- they could get them just by rubbing a polished holy symbol at night...
Now, the flavor for Mystic Theurges would tend to indicate that they are interested in the priestly version of Lore, even if they don't have to be. They want to acquire facts, traditions, and beliefs about divine magic and mysticism. They want to acquire knowledge thruogh education and experience (on divine and philosophical matters).
THERE. The MT has flavor. It's a priest interested in divine lore. And since lore is the bread and butter of a wizard, that also helps the wizard side. It sees even arcane magic as an instrument of the divine.
Now, how good that flavor is, is largely a matter of (I guess) whether you like the PrC or not....
Okay. Now we have definitions of Theurgy and Lore. We've shown that the MT has some flavor (at least as much as the Fighter class does...
). Everything after this point is largely personal opinion and cannot be proven, so I think the conversation will go a lot smoother if we don't try. (Apu)Thankyoucomeagain!(/Apu)
drnuncheon
Explorer
Bendris Noulg said:
I never said you did. I was merely making the point that sometimes looking without fact-checking can lead you to the wrong conclusions.
Bendris Noulg said:
..of course, if your players are the kind that make super-min-maxed characters, then you as a DM need to use more powerful opponents, with better saves and greater SR...
...and so all of the single-classed people minmax themselves, and because they have a head start they wind up better...
...all of which means that nothing has really changed except the numbers are higher.
If the player of the MT minmaxes and nobody else does, it could be a problem - but I put it to you that the same problem would exist no matter what the minmaxer was playing.
J
Purzel
First Post
So, allover it seems, the problems with MT seem to be, what powergamers and munchkins are able to do with the MT. Normal players wont annoy their fellow players and their DMs by min/maxing and powergaming.
Dunno what experience you all have, but a munchkin can corrupt EVERY class and PrC class. Normal roleplaying groups just have fun, even when a character is under- or overpowered.
I think the MT is balanced. The examples being constructed by objectors of that PrC don't have much meaning to me, because:
a) they were done by people with the prejudice, that the MT is broken. Thus such people can't make any proper valid playtests.
b) that the method people used to proof that the MT is overpowered can be basically applied to every existing class
Soo, finally: if people are so afraid of munchkins abusing a class, why the hell don't they just kick those players out of their groups or have a very serious talking about the powergamer's gaming style?
I am very confused, that some people don't use their common sense to solve a little problem (like the MT).
Dunno what experience you all have, but a munchkin can corrupt EVERY class and PrC class. Normal roleplaying groups just have fun, even when a character is under- or overpowered.
I think the MT is balanced. The examples being constructed by objectors of that PrC don't have much meaning to me, because:
a) they were done by people with the prejudice, that the MT is broken. Thus such people can't make any proper valid playtests.
b) that the method people used to proof that the MT is overpowered can be basically applied to every existing class
Soo, finally: if people are so afraid of munchkins abusing a class, why the hell don't they just kick those players out of their groups or have a very serious talking about the powergamer's gaming style?
I am very confused, that some people don't use their common sense to solve a little problem (like the MT).
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