Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[green slime]

And apart from the Dispel Magic problem, Haste and Shield have both been declared to be adjusted in the new 3,5E.

Not only that, but how often can the MT do this feat? Are you really going to be seeing this in your game alot? The character can no longer cast any spells for the duration of the TT. Which is a major drawback for the Clerical aspect...

Any Cleric can do a similar feat. And retain spellcasting ability.

 

[Purzel]

Is it just me, or do all players of clerics only buff themself?

I always perceived it would be much better to buff the groups' fighters, because they have fighter feats. I've learned: to make a specialist more effective, buff him, not yourself. The fighters are able to use combat maneuvers that a cleric will never learn. Fighting tactical (not just having a good buffed Strength and high Hitpoints) and being able to make moves on the battle map, that the enemies couldn't do, always helped my groups to get their asses out of problems (can you say Whirlwind Attack or Greater Cleave?).

So, is a MT buffing himself all the time really the best way to play him? I think no. And it's no fun either, it has the taste of munchkinism.

I've seen a couple of people giving examples of how much the MT can buff up himself. Now, maybe it's the most effective way to make the MT look extremely good (and extremely overpowered). But i think using the spells like this doesn't help the TEAM much. And usually the best team wins the hardest fights.

I think we all should think twice about those examples and playtests people present us in messageboards. I think the MT is balanced and a worthwhile addition to a group low of either arcane or divine magic, when he is played in the BEST way, which means helping the team.

 

[Ziggy]

Welcome to 3.5e.

Haste does not allow an extra spell per round. You start quickening buffs and even a magic battery like the Mystic Theurge starts running low on juice fast.

Also consider, one targetted dispel makes it all go away, quick. The single-class opponent you are fighting has a 15% better chance of dispelling your spells because of your low caster level.

Also, despite the strength buffing and Con bonus, you wont have nearly the hp of a cleric with similar divine buffs, and your dispel attempts against him will have a smaller chance of working.

Technik

You are right about the Haste (forgot about 3.5 ). The rumored fix for Shield is +4 AC, still enough to compensate for the AC loss from the loss of 3 Cleric levels when buffing.

The transformation more than compensates for less HP (1d6 temp HP per level), and your BAB and STR is better than a cleric of similar level (also from Transformation). An alternative to Transformation is Polymoph Self, but I don't allow that IMC so I don't know the smacks here. Finally, the Displacement gives your opponent a 50% miss chance.

But (as I also noted), targeted dispel is your worst enemy. That is always the achilles heel of buffing, regardless of level (but I agree that the MT is even more vulnerable in this configuration).

And I also agree that buffing the fighter is better than buffing yourself (I play a 3.0 cleric that use all his 3th and 4th level spells buffing the fighters and rogue in his group). But many of the mage spells are personal, and if you want to build the ultimate buffed fighting machine (until the Dispel hit you...), you have to do it yourself.

.Ziggy

 

[S'mon]

On reflection I don't think a Clr5/Wiz5/MysTh10 is too overpowered, having 3/4 the spellcasting levels of either core class. So I think raising the requirement to 3rd level arcane & divine spells would be the obvious way to balance this PrC.

edit: I'd probably only allow it for nonhumans, with traditional cleric-wizard multiclassing ability though, primarily elves & drow.

 

[Ziggy]

On reflection I don't think a Clr5/Wiz5/MysTh10 is too overpowered, having 3/4 the spellcasting levels of either core class. So I think raising the requirement to 3rd level arcane & divine spells would be the obvious way to balance this PrC.

Agree. If I allow it IMC, it will probably be with these requirements.

.Ziggy

 

[Technik4]

Just to reiterate a common sentiment S'mon:

The MyT is underpowered at low levels, overpowered at high levels. If you raise the requirements, you make him more underpowered at low levels, and even at high levels. Raising the requirements to 3rd arcane and 3rd divine means clr5/wiz5, which is a fairly weak character from about 6th level to 12th, the heyday of most campaigns.

Technik

 

[Numion]

Sorry, wrong conclusion. While some of the Cleric Buff spells depend on level (Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Divine Favor, Shield og Faith), you lose at most one "+". The power of mage only buff spells more than compensate for that loss (the shield alone will more than equals all loss in AC), and they can be cast as stilled spells in armor.

3 lost caster levels equal +3 to hit / + 3 to damage for an archer cleric. Even more if you take into account divine power. And remember that there isn't time to activate all short-term buffs, because you have to cause the damage somehow. That means you'll have to rely on longer term buffs; no displacement or shields, that run out too quickly to be activated all the time. So the greater selection in buffs doesn't enter the equation since there isn't that much time to use them in combats..

And stilled spells? Then this combo just ends up shooting itself in the leg even more, by loosing a lot of spells in essence to generate a bonus to ac. (Lost because of the metamagic cost, and the AC bonus being the one gained from the armor.) Don't sound too useful..

 

[S'mon]

Just to reiterate a common sentiment S'mon:

The MyT is underpowered at low levels, overpowered at high levels. If you raise the requirements, you make him more underpowered at low levels, and even at high levels. Raising the requirements to 3rd arcane and 3rd divine means clr5/wiz5, which is a fairly weak character from about 6th level to 12th, the heyday of most campaigns.

Technik

Well, yes, sort of - for my campaign, I'd say weak but versatile at 6-12, medium at 12-15 (Cl5/Wiz5/Mth 5), getting rather powerful from 16th (when he gets 6th level Cleric & Wizard spells) onwards. Almost all good Prestige classes make you sacrifice something now for something more later. My revision would let me model my world Ea's traditional elf & drow wizard-priest NPCs IMC - they're not supposed to be as powerful as a single class Wiz 20, but they need to be better than a Clr 10/Wiz 10.

My campaign is currently around 11th level and likely to go to 20+ so that's the levels I'm concerned about!

 

[S'mon]

To reiterate, I don't _want_ a PrC that at 20th level looks a more powerful spellcaster than a single-classed Wizard, the 'gold standard' IMC. If he gives up a significant amount of power in exchange for greatly increased versatility, ok. Note that 5/5/10 can still cast 8th level spells, both divine & arcane.

 

[Ziggy]

3 lost caster levels equal +3 to hit / + 3 to damage for an archer cleric. Even more if you take into account divine power. And remember that there isn't time to activate all short-term buffs, because you have to cause the damage somehow. That means you'll have to rely on longer term buffs; no displacement or shields, that run out too quickly to be activated all the time. So the greater selection in buffs doesn't enter the equation since there isn't that much time to use them in combats..

Where do you get the +3 to hit / + 3 to damage from ? You'll get +1/+1 from Greater Magic Weapon (until you hit the level 15 barrier, something many clerics encounter at 11th level using the far-too-good Necklace of prayer beads (karma)) and +1/+1 from Divine Favor. Divine Power is based on character level, and therefore not dependent on caster level.

Edit: I just noticed the archer bit, which takes it to +3/+3. Still the Necklace of prayer beads (karma) takes it back to +1/+1.

I do agree that this concept requires an inordinate number of buffs, but that was sort of the point. If you want maximum smack you could go the persistant route for the short duration ones, but that is probably too much

And stilled spells? Then this combo just ends up shooting itself in the leg even more, by loosing a lot of spells in essence to generate a bonus to ac. (Lost because of the metamagic cost, and the AC bonus being the one gained from the armor.) Don't sound too useful..

Here you lost me completely. Yes, you loose a number of spells (because of the metamagic), but with the sheer amount of spells he's got the MT can afford it.

I've just shown you that given time to buff properly, the MT overpowers the pure cleric in combat. Yes, it takes a fair amount of time. Yes, it requires some of his mage spells (but he still have more that a few left, while the pure cleric has none). And yes, it can only be done a couple of times per day. But within these parameters, he is the ultimate buffing machine.

In a different setting (lots of combat, anti magic, whatever), other tactics should be used. I'm not saying the MT is the end of all combat, just that within the parameters you desribed, he beats the cleric flat out.

.Ziggy