Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[Bendris Noulg]

But plain wizards only like arcane lore. This one likes both arcane and divine lore.

Except, per the mechanics, "divine lore" doesn't exist. Divine spells/powers come from a deity, cause or source of divine power (PHB, Page 30).

What is a swashbuckler? A fighter who's obsessed with a certain set of particular weapons and one particular fighting style, and doesn't cultivate the other powers of the base fighter archetype (the use of armor, heavy weapons, shields, and archery).

What is an Assassin? A rogue who's obsessed with stealth and murder, and not the other powers of the base archetype. (skills out the wazoo to keep a balanced view of sneaking, thievery, spying, and brash confidence games.)

Both of these examples are archtypes that exist "within" the context of a generality. The Mystic Theurge is two different generalities pulled together. Far from the same thing. Hell, even the Trickster put forth a pretense of purpose; This thing doesn't even do that.

Again, I fail to see why this argument is leveled against the MyT specifically, when it strikes true against so many prestige classes. Why is the MyT "flavorless goop" when the swashbuckler and assassin and loremaster are mighty paragons of flavor? Does playing an archetype to the point of playing a stereotype truly grant flavor to the game? I state that for every tightly-defined and stereotyped class like the Monk or Paladin, there should be wide-open and diverse classes like the Theurge. Both have their place in the game.

There are many Prestige Classes that don't fit an archtype; Rather, they create their own, all-new and never-before-seen archtype. In comparison, this is all about spellcasting power.

I guess, where you see "flavorless goop", I see "modelling clay". I can form this "flavorless goop" into all sorts of interesting and, dare I say, flavorful, archetypes.

So do I, hence why I'd make the changes I've posted earlier if I decide to use it. However, it's kind of like being in art class with a student that's had private lessons and a teacher that grades on a curve.

If this means we just agree to disagree, that's fine too. D&D can't be everything to everybody.

True, but D&D also has presented a standard of self-defined balance. And while I don't always agree with the tenants of "Core Balance", I'm having a hard time viewing this as being remotely close to 3E's already over-inflated standards.

 

[JayOmega]

Except, per the mechanics, "divine lore" doesn't exist. Divine spells/powers come from a deity, cause or source of divine power (PHB, Page 30).

That "divine lore" comment was meant to be a bit flip, but it does still exist. Clerics can learn new (or forgotten) spells, and they can create magical items (or find lost ones.) One can learn "how to use divine power" regardless of the ultimate source of the power.

True, but D&D also has presented a standard of self-defined balance. And while I don't always agree with the tenants of "Core Balance", I'm having a hard time viewing this as being remotely close to 3E's already over-inflated standards.

...my whole post was to address flavor; balance is another argument entirely. Except to counter other's arguments, I'm not putting forth a strong opinion on this until I see all of 3.5E. My inkling is that it will be balanced, delta combinations with other "powerful" PrC's like the Geomancer, and delta epic levels if it progresses as written. I expect it won't (or it will get a very limited epic bonus feat advancement). Having not played at epic levels myself, I can't say what's balanced up there. (cue peanut gallery: "nothing's balanced at Epic level!")

 

[green slime]

Someone needs to check a dictionary on the meaning of "lore".

I'm with JayOmega on this issue.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Someone needs to check a dictionary on the meaning of "lore".

Some folks need to check the rules to find where having access to "lore" grants more spell access. It's needed for the Wizard, it's irrelevant to the Cleric, as they are fueled by faith alone.

 

[green slime]

lore as in...knowledge!?!!?!!

I didn't know that Divine spell casting and knowledge were actually mutually exclusive things!

Strange I can't seem to find the game definition of "Lore" in the PHB Glossary of terms... nor in the index...

It couldn't possibly be that it was *gasp* flavour text? No.... It can't be!

 

[Celtavian]

re

Y'know, when I first saw the Mystic Theurge, my first thought was, "THEY'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!"

After I thought about it and read this thread, my second thought was, "Aldric Greymoon can live again."

In a long-ago 2nd edition AD&D campaign, a friend of mine played a grey elf cleric/mage named Aldric Greymoon. Aldric was low on hit points, terrible at combat and armor, but MY GOD, he could cast spells! Using the old 1st edition rules on Spell prep times, it took him a complete DAY to retrieve all his spells. (something like 22 hours at 6th level.)

With 3E, Aldric's character would be reduced to a pale shadow, having to split caster levels, and would not be a workable concept unless the levels were heavily skewed one way or another, and then the concept was adversely affected.

With the mystic theurge, the concept of the 2nd edition multi-spellcaster has been recreated.

Yes, crunch has begotten flavor. But this is nothing new. Many people see "crunch" and "flavor" as mutually exclusive, but the fact is that these two types of play have been feeding off of one another since the beginning, people have jsut been emphasizing one way versus another. I have had grappling rules become the basis for inspired drama, I've had random magic item rolls become the basis for an epic campaign, I've had a single magic items become the inspiration for a small nation of good humanoids, whose start was a helm of opposite alignment. Whereas a character concept was stifled during the rules change of 2nd to 3rd edition, it is reborn in 3E revised.

This is my view as well. One of my all-time favorite characters was a fighter/cleric/mage half-elf. I loved playing this character. I was seriously disappointed that I couldn't play this character in 3rd edition because of the new multi-classing rules.

Now that the Mystic Theurge is an option, I can remake the character. His fighting abilities were never supposed to be that great, so now I can stack him as a caster while giving him a little extra fighting ability. That will capture the essence of the character perfectly.

Even though the Mystic Theurge may not be entirely balanced compared to other options, I am still very happy they created a prestige class for those who had cleric/mage characters they loved to play.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

It couldn't possibly be that it was *gasp* flavour text? No.... It can't be!

The flavor text you refer to (PHB, Page 156) is for spells not on the standard Cleric list. Other than that, it states that Divine spells can be written down. IOW, the primary source of the Cleric's power is from his faith in his religious scriptures, not "lore" directly relating to the magical process.

Player's Handbook, Page 31:
Spells: (2nd Paragraph) Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or divine inspiration...

If you've changed the flavor regarding this in your game, fine for you. I change quite a bit myself (for instance, I don't even have Clerics in my game). However, if you're going to act like an expert, please try to get it right. Otherwise you just waste my time while making a fool of yourself.

 

[green slime]

The flavor text you refer to (PHB, Page 156) is for spells not on the standard Cleric list. Other than that, it states that Divine spells can be written down. IOW, the primary source of the Cleric's power is from his faith in his religious scriptures, not "lore" directly relating to the magical process.

If you've changed the flavor regarding this in your game, fine for you. I change quite a bit myself (for instance, I don't even have Clerics in my game). However, if you're going to act like an expert, please try to get it right. Otherwise you just waste my time while making a fool of yourself.

Neither of your two statements preclude the existence of Divine lore. Divine knowledge, as per "Knowledge of the Divine". I agree with your statement that it doesn't exist mechanically, but that does not prevent the inclusion of a flavour: Divine Lore. This it could be claimed is summed up in the skill Knowledge (Religion)

It has nothing to do with where the spells come from, just that there can exist, in game, something which is best described as Divine Lore. "Lore" is not something that is exclusive to the Wizard class. There is even a "Bardic Lore" in game.

I'm not talking about "my game" in this lore context. You on the other hand are trying to insist that "lore" is something exclusive to wizards. You could try to stop wasting your time, OR discuss without trying to insult me.

"LORE" is NOT a definition in the game. Look in the PHB glossary. I never refered to anything other than the PHB Glossary or the index. Thus "lore" is flavour text, given to explain the game mechanic of wizard spell aquisition.

 

[Ziggy]

IME the most powerful type of cleric is the one that buffs himself with all the protective and offensive spells and then wades into melee, or shoots with his bow. That kind of cleric excels even fighters in melee, and they're incredibly hard to kill. I know this from DMing two campaigns in 3e, one to 16th level and one to 24th.

Now this new prestige class won't work with that cleric build, because it loses caster levels (at least three, and most of the clerics buffing spells depend on levels) and the use of armor.

Sorry, wrong conclusion. While some of the Cleric Buff spells depend on level (Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Divine Favor, Shield og Faith), you lose at most one "+". The power of mage only buff spells more than compensate for that loss (the shield alone will more than equals all loss in AC), and they can be cast as stilled spells in armor.

Just imagine a Clr3/Wiz/MT10 with these spells after buffing:

• Empowered Endurance
• Empowered Strength
• Divine Favor
• Shield of Faith
• Divine Power
• Magic Vestment
• Greater Magic Weapon
• Prayer
• Righteous Might
• Stilled Shield
• Stilled Displacement
• Stilled Mirror Image
• Stilled Haste
• Stilled (Tensers) Transformation

The haste makes the casting of lots of short tems buff spells possible, while the (personal only) mage spells Shield, Displacement and Transformation make him a combat machine. And he's got a Dimention Door if he's in big trouble (but only after the Transformation runs out). He's vulnerable to Dispel Magic, but apart from that he'll slaughter a Fighter of the same level (even with far less feats).

.Ziggy

 

[Technik4]

Welcome to 3.5e.

Haste does not allow an extra spell per round. You start quickening buffs and even a magic battery like the Mystic Theurge starts running low on juice fast.

Also consider, one targetted dispel makes it all go away, quick. The single-class opponent you are fighting has a 15% better chance of dispelling your spells because of your low caster level.

4th
4th
1st
2nd
4th
3rd
3rd
3rd
5th
2nd
4th
3rd

0/1/2/4/4/1

Also, despite the strength buffing and Con bonus, you wont have nearly the hp of a cleric with similar divine buffs, and your dispel attempts against him will have a smaller chance of working.

Technik