Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[Oni]

Re: Re: Re: Serious Question

I've never seen a viable multiclass combo for every possible multiclass as being obligatory, so I don't see how this is addressing a problem with the rules. AFAIAC, it's just giving some people (apparently not Hong) something that that want.

The fact is that it is addressing a problem in the rules whether one sees it that way or not, because we've been told this flat out that it is. See Andy Collins' statements in regards to this.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Serious Question

See Andy Collins' statements in regards to this.

Sure...

Originally posted by Realms Protector at GamingReport.com:
Andy Collins on the Mystic Theurge Prestige Class:
"One of the problems identified in 3rd Edition is the inequality of multiclassing options. While combos of melee-type classes are pretty attractive (since BAB, the fighter's holy grail, continues to increase regardless of the class taken), any spellcaster wishing to multiclass takes a dramatic hit on his spellcasting power. Cool archetypes from past versions of the games--fighter/wizards, cleric/wizards, and the like--were kicked in the groin (repeatedly).

The mystic theurge is part of a dedicated approach in 3.5 to address that problem. In this case, the prestige class presents a viable road for the character who wants to pursue two different magical paths, without having to forgo any hope of keeping up with his friends.

Sorry, but this translates as "we are working on circumventing the cost associated to your choices." That doesn't strike me as wise game design so much as it screams "The Year of the Power Gamer has arrived".

At any given character level below 20th, the theurge will either be one or two spell levels behind the single-classed character. That's a *huge* disadvantage.

No, it isn't, considering that the character has doubled his spell-casting potential for 1st through 6th Level Spells.

Don't overlook the other big disadvantage: His caster level is 3 below the single-classed character, which means it's tougher to bypass spell resistance, his spells are easier to dispel, and his spells simply have less effect overall. He'll *never* dig out of this hole.

Doesn't need to. As you advance in levels, the hole gets naturally shallower. By 25th Level, it's non-existant.

Another hidden problem is that the character has one extra mental ability score to max out. Most spellcasters can get away with putting their 2nd-best ability into Dex or Con, but not this guy. To take full advantage of his spellcasting power, he'll need to keep two mental stats as high as possible. Not many wizards like "wasting" a high stat in Wisdom, and ditto for clerics and Intelligence.

Of course, with all the buff-spells available to him, this is again something that becomes less signifigant as you go.

Oh, and he also gives up the special abilities of the class. No more turning or bonus feats, thanks!

Big woop. As has been pointed out, he can still gain Epic Spellcasting at 21st Level.

One level later, the character has the spellcasting power of a Clr4/Wiz4. (Remember, though, he's still only a 7th-level character, with a 7th-level character's hp, bab, saves, and so forth). He's still only casting 2nd-level spells, while the single-classed character is chucking around 4th-level spells.

Check in again at character level 10. The Clr3/Wiz3/Theurge4 now has 4th-level spells in two classes, compared to the Clr10 or Wiz10 who's throwing flame strikes or walls of force.

Naming the spells is a cop-out. Let's say what it is: 4th Level Spells for 2 Classes vs 5th Level Spells for 1 Class. That hole's getting shallow already.

At level 16, the Clr3/Wiz3/Theurge10 has one or two 7th-level spells in two classes, but the single-classed character has three or maybe even four 8th-level spells.

True, but again, the C/W/MT is whipping out twice as many of those spells. Assuming the Player is even half-smart with what he uses and when he uses it, the C/W/MT is already far more powerful.

At level 20, the theurge might have continued to split his caster levels (becoming a Clr5/Wiz5/Theurge10). This gives him 8th-level spells in two classes.

Which is still twice as many spells.

Alternatively, he might have advanced only one class (becoming a Clr7/Wiz3/Theurge10 or Clr3/Wiz7/Theurge10). That gives him a couple of 9th-level spells (compared to the five or more of a 20th-level single-classed caster).

It also preps the character for Epic, at which point the difference becomes insignificant.

As far as epic levels go, let's not count those particular chickens before seeing what the character's epic-level progression looks like, eh?"

Might as well, otherwise AC would have to admit that the class is broken.

 

[Henry]

You missed my point. In earlier editions, they were considered a wizard AND a cleric, not a single fabricated archetype with no reason for existence called something like a wizeric or a clizard, which the Mystic Theurge is. Two archetypes together, not one which only exists to kow tow to an existing rules artefact for sake of consistency, which is what we're getting.

Y'know, when I first saw the Mystic Theurge, my first thought was, "THEY'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!"

After I thought about it and read this thread, my second thought was, "Aldric Greymoon can live again."

In a long-ago 2nd edition AD&D campaign, a friend of mine played a grey elf cleric/mage named Aldric Greymoon. Aldric was low on hit points, terrible at combat and armor, but MY GOD, he could cast spells! Using the old 1st edition rules on Spell prep times, it took him a complete DAY to retrieve all his spells. (something like 22 hours at 6th level.)

With 3E, Aldric's character would be reduced to a pale shadow, having to split caster levels, and would not be a workable concept unless the levels were heavily skewed one way or another, and then the concept was adversely affected.

With the mystic theurge, the concept of the 2nd edition multi-spellcaster has been recreated.

Yes, crunch has begotten flavor. But this is nothing new. Many people see "crunch" and "flavor" as mutually exclusive, but the fact is that these two types of play have been feeding off of one another since the beginning, people have jsut been emphasizing one way versus another. I have had grappling rules become the basis for inspired drama, I've had random magic item rolls become the basis for an epic campaign, I've had a single magic items become the inspiration for a small nation of good humanoids, whose start was a helm of opposite alignment. Whereas a character concept was stifled during the rules change of 2nd to 3rd edition, it is reborn in 3E revised.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Part of my objection to the class is that I don't see this "problem" that some are alleging exists. I read Andy Collins' statements on this and personally I think his argument is poor. If multiclassing causes a character to get "kicked in the groin" then don't do it. I fail to see why multiclassers should have their cake and eat it too, and I say this as someone who multiclasses frequently.

Multiclassing generates jack-of-all-trades characters but as compensation for this versatility you loose the benefits of concentration. The mystic theurge class allows you to be a jack-of-all-trades AND master of all of them. How is that fair to the person who shows dedication with a single-class character that the multiclassed character gets ALL of his abilities AND an additional set as well at nearly full capability.

I disagree that loss of ability to Turn Undead and loss of familiar progression and bonus metamagic feats are worth consideration. Both are ancillary abilities to their respective classes. The primary ability is spellcasting and spellcasting is a very powerful ability, especially now that you effectively get it TWICE.

I also disagree that 3 levels less of spellcasting is suitable balance. A three-level difference is TRIVIAL at higher levels and the mystic theurge can still get 9th level spells in BOTH classes before hitting epic spells. I might have less dislike for this class if only it weren't so easy to get in and so much better than almost all other continuing spellcasting classes.

Once I allowed a psion/wizard and psion/cleric prestige class for my Dark Sun campaign that would advance both classes. The prerequisites came out to 3rd lvl arcane/divine spells and 3rd lvl psionic powers (meaning that the earliest you could enter the class was 11th lvl). That class had the wizard BAB table and NO good saves nor did it advance anything else but spellcasting.

What next, someone complains how his monk5/wizard5 is shafted by multiclassing so WoTC releases a class that lets you advance ALL of the monk abilities except monk bonuses to AC and ALL wizard abilities except for familiar advancement and bonus feats?

Personally, as far as my campaign goes I will treat the Mystic Theurge as a belated April Fools joke. As far as I am concerned, if anyone wants to be an arcane caster with divine spells, take enough levels in the Eldrich Master prestige class from Dragon Magazine (don't know the issue # off hand) that you can cast divine spells with your arcane spell slots. You absolutely will not get 2x the spell slots AND be able to cast them at nearly full level simply by taking one prestige class.

Tzarevitch

 

[drnuncheon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Serious Question

Sorry, but this translates as "we are working on circumventing the cost associated to your choices."

Equally, it could translate as "we realized that the cost of your choice was far greater than the benefits, and we're working to correct that" - which is good game design.

I sincerely doubt that the staff at WOTC is sitting in their cubes saying "Hur hur, lets make uber kewl PrC better than everything else and ruin everyone's game". After all, what would be the point?

J

 

[mmu1]

Part of my objection to the class is that I don't see this "problem" that some are alleging exists. I read Andy Collins' statements on this and personally I think his argument is poor. If multiclassing causes a character to get "kicked in the groin" then don't do it. I fail to see why multiclassers should have their cake and eat it too, and I say this as someone who multiclasses frequently.

Agreed... I'd like to hear a definition of what the people who think the MT is just dandy consider to be a "viable" multi-class caster, because it seems like we have a lot of people here who think that anything short of having the almost-complete abilities of two different classes for the price of one makes for unplayable multi-class spellcasters.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Serious Question

Equally, it could translate as "we realized that the cost of your choice was far greater than the benefits, and we're working to correct that" - which is good game design.

I sincerely doubt that the staff at WOTC is sitting in their cubes saying "Hur hur, lets make uber kewl PrC better than everything else and ruin everyone's game". After all, what would be the point?

Thing is, while they may be trying to do the first, the result here is closer to the later. If this proved balanced in Playtesting, it's likely because they gave it to someone that did a crap job of spell selection. A 16th Level Character with the spells of a 13 Wizard and a 13 Cleric is an absolute power house. Sure, some of his side-benefits are reduced, but the spell output is devestating in the hands of someone that can use his spells wisely (Hell, as a DM I wouldn't give this to an NPC because I know that any villain I create with this class is going to mop the floor with the party I put him against). The choice in multiclassing is selecting one class or the other. This class offers the best of both. That's a problem.

That the character can have Epic Spellcasting at 21st Level also means that the cost of multiclassing is actually reduced to near nothing. And that cost only gets smaller with each level gained. Considering that the only thing this Class offers is +1 Caster Level for two Classes per Level, I'd say that projecting it into Epic is excessively easy, hense my earlier statement that it should be cut to 5 Levels. Heck, even then it's still quite potent, per the earlier post detailing the True Necromancer combo.

 

[Numion]

IME the most powerful type of cleric is the one that buffs himself with all the protective and offensive spells and then wades into melee, or shoots with his bow. That kind of cleric excels even fighters in melee, and they're incredibly hard to kill. I know this from DMing two campaigns in 3e, one to 16th level and one to 24th.

Now this new prestige class won't work with that cleric build, because it loses caster levels (at least three, and most of the clerics buffing spells depend on levels) and the use of armor.

And from this insight follows that it's not as broken as the pure numerical speculation people have given here might indicate. Compared to a straight cleric the theurge just won't be much better. It might or might not be a bit better, but only playtesting will reveal that.

Consider also that most of the spellcasting PrC's are crippled by lame spell progression. I'm not saying that this is the cure, but it at least makes multiclass caster an option.

 

[Michael Tree]

A flavorful requirement, like "you must use your divine focus to cast all your spells with Material or Focus components, even the arcane ones," or a special ability, like once per day per level casting a divine spell as an arcane spell or vice versa, would go a long way toward explaining the game-world rationale for what's going on with this class.

You could even put in an all-flavor requirement or two: "Must receive a special blessing from the high priest of the god of magic," or "must spend one month in solitude, studying magic and praying."

I completely agree. The problem as I see it is that the class was created to serve as an example of how to create multiclass spellcasters work in a PrC, yet the designers left it generic enough to be used for a wide variety of characters. If it were more specific or flavorful, it would be just as good an example, but would be more interesting in its own right. This is particularly irksome because the 3.5 designers left in rules that have no purpose but flavor in the core classes (ie. the Paladin/Monk multiclassing restriction) but left flavor rules out of this PrC.

Perhaps I don't find the MT dull because I'm unconsciously interjecting all sorts of cool information on real world theurgy and religious-based occult magic. The MT is perfect for occult Kabbalists, who combine divine magic with all sorts of eclectic pagan and secular sources.

 

[Michael Tree]

If multiclassing causes a character to get "kicked in the groin" then don't do it. I fail to see why multiclassers should have their cake and eat it too, and I say this as someone who multiclasses frequently.

The problem isn't that when multiclassing you sacrifice focused power for versatility. The problem is that a multiclass spellcaster sacrifices far more power than he makes up for in versatility. A Cleric 10 / Wizard 10, in a word, sucks. It has less spells per day than a single classed wizard 20 or Cleric 20, and because it gives up several spell levels, it don't have the versatility that the single classed character has either.

How is that fair to the person who shows dedication with a single-class character that the multiclassed character gets ALL of his abilities AND an additional set as well at nearly full capability.

That wouldn't be fair, you're right. However, a MT doesn't get even close to all of the abilities of a single classed spellcaster. His spell penetration, offensive power/round, saving throw DCs, and most powerful spells are all much weaker than the single classed character, as well as the lost non-spellcasting class abilities.

In a campaign where prestige classes are used, the MT also has the opportunity cost of not being able to take other prestige classes. Is a Cleric 3/Wizard 7/Mystic Theurge 10 really that much better than a Wizard 5/Incatatrix 10/Archmage 5?

What next, someone complains how his monk5/wizard5 is shafted by multiclassing so WoTC releases a class that lets you advance ALL of the monk abilities except monk bonuses to AC and ALL wizard abilities except for familiar advancement and bonus feats?

Actually, such a class would probably be balanced, if the BAB, HD, and skill points are the same as the Wizard's.