Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[8XXX{0}====>]

I dont know what to say about it, except that i need to playtest it. But i can already see a nice loophole it makes viable:

A specilaized wizard looses some schools of magic.

His cleric spells are unaffected by this. But clerics have domains that basically take the best wizard/cleric spell of that level for the domain. So couldnt a Theurge just take apropriate domains to lessen the blow of the loss of an entire school?

 

[Platinum]

The fix.

With ANY prerequisite, it's still TOO powerful, because at epic level, the abuse potential is mind boggling.
The fix lies within the granted caster levels.

My fix is:
Only grant the +2 caster levels once every 5 levels and for the other levels, the class must choose which class's caster level improves.

L . Bonus
.1. +1 any one caster level
.2. +1 any one caster level
.3. +1 any one caster level
.4. +1 any one caster level
.5. +1 any TWO caster levels
.6. +1 any one caster level
.7. +1 any one caster level
.8. +1 any one caster level
.9. +1 any one caster level
10. +1 any TWO caster levels

Cool?

 

[Droogie]

Hmmm. I kinda like it. I'm one of those guys who wonders why there's a distinction between arcane and divine magic anyway, and this PrC is one more step towards my idea of what magic should be.

I could see this being an exclusive PrC for worshippers of Boccob.

 

[Drake_DM]

Those who are advocating that straight clerics are worse than this class need consider one thing:
Miracle

High level clerics can cast 7th level wizard spells and lower ANYWAY. Except they have none of the disadvantages of this class.

Also note that the eldritch master has been around for ages and is probably better than this class, yet my group has never found that class overpowered.

 

[Umbran]

How many of those can the Theurge make up for using arcane support spells that the straight cleric cannot, of course, cast?

And how many spells does it take to do it properly? How many rounds will it require to set up, and for how many will it last? How many spells will he have to effectively give up to do this?

In general, the fact that a set of disadvantages can be temporarily overcome is not a compelling argument, unless they are easy to overcome, and that power is available whenever the PC needs it at little cost.

If it requires a significant portion of the character's spell power to keep the work-around "on hand", then the character is throwing away a goodly part of his gains to overcome his losses. What the devil is the point in that?

If he'd wanted HP and AC and BAB, he could have had them by being a cleric. It makes little sense to turn around and use theurge power to turn yourself back into the cleric you could have been.

 

[AuraSeer]

Holy mother of monkey-loving crapweasels.

Do you all hear that weird noise? It's the sound of a million spellcaster munchkins squealing in orgiastic glee. WOTC has really got to stop huffing those paint fumes.

 

[Grog]

Re: The fix.

With ANY prerequisite, it's still TOO powerful, because at epic level, the abuse potential is mind boggling.
The fix lies within the granted caster levels.

My fix is:
Only grant the +2 caster levels once every 5 levels and for the other levels, the class must choose which class's caster level improves.

IMO that's way too weak. You're drastically underestimating the importance of the lost caster levels.

If the player decides to split their caster levels evenly, at 16th level, they'll be casting spells as a 9th level cleric and a 9th level wizard. So a 16th level caster will only be able to cast 5th level spells tops, and not very many of those to boot. And they'll have a caster level of 9, which means penetrating SR will be almost impossible, dispelling will be almost impossible, and their spells can be dispelled with ease.

Utterly, utterly useless.

Or they could put all the levels in wizard, and end up as basically a 13th level wizard and a 5th level cleric... But are the spellcasting abilities of a 5th level cleric worth dropping from 16th to 13th level as a wizard? I don't think so.

I think the class as written is slightly overpowered, but not too much. It's only really a problem if the player goes Wiz7/Clr3/MT10. It's pretty well-balanced if the character takes even progression in both classes (i.e., Wiz5/Clr5/MT10). It might even be a little on the weak side at that point.

Oh, and I do agree with you that this class becomes very problematic at epic levels. If I were running an epic campaign, I probably wouldn't allow the class past level 10, even though the rules allow 10 level PrCs to continue advancing.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

It actually looks fine enough if the prereqs were changed to "must be able to cast 3rd level divine spells and 3rd level arcane spells". Because then the Cleric 3/Wizard 7/Mystic Theurge 10 combinations can't happen.

 

[Vaxalon]

How many of those can the Theurge make up for using arcane support spells that the straight cleric cannot, of course, cast?

Name them.

See how long it takes for the Mystic Theurge to buff himself up to the same attack bonus, saves, and hit points as the cleric has. At that point, the cleric is up by that number of rounds of melee.

I'm with the minority. I don't see anything wrong with the MT.

 

[Remathilis]

This goes back to playing a cleric/wizard combo in 2e, you give up speed for alot of friggin spells. Your three caster levels behind at minimum, 5 at even progression.

Jury's still out on this one.