I think I have found the biggest drawback of this Prc, even more than the lost three level : you have TWO spell list to deal with. How much time (IRL) will you loose to choose and prepare your spells ? I can already hear the non spellcasters saying "hurry up, we wanna play"! Unless you have a computer in your head, you will loose a great part of the Prc power due to slapdash prepared spells list.
Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!
- Thread starter Mark Chance
- Start date
Crothian
First Post
I don't think it's that bad. At the higher levels and epic it might get out of hand, but since I haven't seen a campaign get over 10th level in about a year I'm not that worried about. Plus, it's on the web site. I worry more with what I see in print as for some reason PCs seem to think that print means it is somehow better or more balanced.
Dark Eternal
First Post
Well, as far as I'm concerned, after working the numbers and playing with the possibilities for a couple of hours, I'm going to give this PrC a big, fat "Not in MY campaign!" and let it go at that.
The single biggest reason? It doesn't actually turn out to be as ridiculously overpowered as I thought it would. But it does turn out to be overpowered just enough that many (if not a majority) players with spellcasters are going to want to take it.
Which leads to the biggest problem, IME - blurred and overstepped 'roles' in a party.
Consider if you have a party with the classic "1 rogue, 1 fighter, 1 cleric, 1 mage" in your group. Now consider what happens once the mage, at 4th level, multiclasses to cleric. Then at 7th level, takes Mystic Theurge.
From 4th level on, the guy playing the cleric only has a few spells that the other character doesn't. And for the rest of the campaign, he'll only ever be able to do a very, very few things that the mage/theurge can't. That's assuming for whatever reason that the cleric player doesn't decide to do the exact same thing - and I don't have to enumerate the problems if he does.
This may seem like a "so what?" kind of issue to some. But I guarantee: in the majority of groups where this situation comes up, it's gonna cause problems.
Besides, as a second place problem - at higher levels, the Theurge becomes an absolute terror as a support caster. And there are enough headaches with excessive support casting IME anyways. So, I'd rather not throw into play a way to compound the problem, thank you anyways...
At least I'll be able to warn my senior DM and his/my players that this PrC won't be an option before the book ever comes out. Thanks, WotC!
The single biggest reason? It doesn't actually turn out to be as ridiculously overpowered as I thought it would. But it does turn out to be overpowered just enough that many (if not a majority) players with spellcasters are going to want to take it.
Which leads to the biggest problem, IME - blurred and overstepped 'roles' in a party.
Consider if you have a party with the classic "1 rogue, 1 fighter, 1 cleric, 1 mage" in your group. Now consider what happens once the mage, at 4th level, multiclasses to cleric. Then at 7th level, takes Mystic Theurge.
From 4th level on, the guy playing the cleric only has a few spells that the other character doesn't. And for the rest of the campaign, he'll only ever be able to do a very, very few things that the mage/theurge can't. That's assuming for whatever reason that the cleric player doesn't decide to do the exact same thing - and I don't have to enumerate the problems if he does.
This may seem like a "so what?" kind of issue to some. But I guarantee: in the majority of groups where this situation comes up, it's gonna cause problems.
Besides, as a second place problem - at higher levels, the Theurge becomes an absolute terror as a support caster. And there are enough headaches with excessive support casting IME anyways. So, I'd rather not throw into play a way to compound the problem, thank you anyways...
At least I'll be able to warn my senior DM and his/my players that this PrC won't be an option before the book ever comes out. Thanks, WotC!
Malin Genie said:
Yeah, and the text recognizes that fact. They didn't intend it to be real great for druids. And it isn't like you would expect a single prestige class to handle every possible spellcasting multiclass combination.
As for not doing anything for special abilities, I'm quite sure that's intentional. It doesn't help with the wizard's feats which can be a substantial loss. I think the idea is that if what you really want is spellcasting, you' can have it, but you're going to have to give up a few frills for it.
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The straight cleric will have a better BAB, hp, turning ability and 3 levels of spellcasting, and ALL of his spells can be used with through armor consistently. All of those compliment each other, especially given Harm and other key touch spells, let alone the supporting healing role. I don't think he has anything to worry about.
Dark Eternal
First Post
jasamcarl said:
{blink...blink...}
Uh, right.
How many of those can the Theurge make up for using arcane support spells that the straight cleric cannot, of course, cast?
Hmm... just about all except the extra 3 levels of spellcasting... and he'll still have arcane spells left over for other fun stuff after he's done so.
You really don't think that the straight cleric has anything to worry about?
If you still don't, then I'm happy to let it go at that. I just wanted to make sure you'd looked at it from both sides before deciding.
I still won't be using or allowing the PrC, though.
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Sample:
Wiz20 vs. Clr3/Wiz3/MTh10/Xyz4 (where Xyz is another PrC that grants +2 caster levels per XP level) = no contest.
...even: Wiz3/Clr3/MTh10 (a level 16 PC) is gross. Few PCs reach 17th level anyway. That's level 7 spells in 2 classes folks! Quite the badboy at level 16, wouldn't ya say?
Worst case sinerio is you wait until epic level to gain two more levels of MTh and 9th level spells:
Clr3/Wiz3/MTh12/Geomancer4 (w. geomancer levels split between Clr & Wiz).
Yep, worst case situation, I'm level 22 before I have max spell level in two classes. Just a small differance than the old 34 levels it use to take to get this, wouldn't you say?
Wiz20 vs. Clr3/Wiz3/MTh10/Xyz4 (where Xyz is another PrC that grants +2 caster levels per XP level) = no contest.
...even: Wiz3/Clr3/MTh10 (a level 16 PC) is gross. Few PCs reach 17th level anyway. That's level 7 spells in 2 classes folks! Quite the badboy at level 16, wouldn't ya say?
Worst case sinerio is you wait until epic level to gain two more levels of MTh and 9th level spells:
Clr3/Wiz3/MTh12/Geomancer4 (w. geomancer levels split between Clr & Wiz).
Yep, worst case situation, I'm level 22 before I have max spell level in two classes. Just a small differance than the old 34 levels it use to take to get this, wouldn't you say?
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