Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[Grog]

This goes back to playing a cleric/wizard combo in 2e, you give up speed for alot of friggin spells. Your three caster levels behind at minimum, 5 at even progression.

Exactly, this is pretty much just like the 1e/2e cleric/wizard multiclass. Was that class horribly overpowered and game breaking?

 

[Dark Eternal]

Name them.

See how long it takes for the Mystic Theurge to buff himself up to the same attack bonus, saves, and hit points as the cleric has. At that point, the cleric is up by that number of rounds of melee.

I'm with the minority. I don't see anything wrong with the MT.

I chose not to go into detailed argument with jasamcarl, I chose not to with Umbran, and I choose not to with you, either. The reason: because it's entirely too subjective a question. What abilities are better than or equal to what abilities? Everyone feels differently. There is no hope whatsoever of reaching a concensus on this issue. I have simply stated my perspective on the matter - and I have already yielded that I don't consider my opinion to be the alpha and the omega.

However, this point only addresses a portion of my original concern. And, I have yet to see anyone address my secondary point at all. (And it was only marginally secondary, at that!)

 

[Mark Chance]

Exactly, this is pretty much just like the 1e/2e cleric/wizard multiclass. Was that class horribly overpowered and game breaking?

One major difference: XP was split evenly between classes in previous editions. A multiclass PC was consistently one or two levels behind the curve compared to single-classed PCs.

The MT looks to be giving a PC 1.5 character classes for the XP per level needed for just 1. That could be a problem.

One other thing: I don't really see the MT being problematic at high levels (except for possibly epic levels). At 20th level, any character is obnoxious.

Where I see real balance issues for the MT compared to other characters is the mid-levels, say, 8th to 13th.

Of course, I could be wrong.

But if something seems to good to be true, it probably ought not be true.

 

[FireLance]

My problem with the Mystic Theurge is the sheer number of buffs + healing that it is capable of producing. Especially the long-duration 1 hour/level buffs that effectively last the whole day anyway. Think of it this way: a Wiz3/Clr3/MT10 is basically a 16th-level character that casts offensively as a Wiz13 and buffs like a Clr13. Sound scary?

If you're comparing the MT to the Eldritch Master in the Dragon magazine, don't forget that the EM doesn't get so may spells per day. Yes, he may be able to select spells known from several spell lists, but his actual spell slots will be about half (estimated - I don't have the time to do the math) that of a MT.

 

[Grog]

One major difference: XP was split evenly between classes in previous editions. A multiclass PC was consistently one or two levels behind the curve compared to single-classed PCs.

And the MT is consistently three levels behind the curve compared to a single class caster. Plus he doesn't get the benefit of d8 hit dice every other level and cleric fighting ability like the 1e/2e multiclasser did.

Where I see real balance issues for the MT compared to other characters is the mid-levels, say, 8th to 13th.

Well, at those levels, I'd think the slowed access to higher level spells would be even more of an issue. I mean, a single class cleric gets Heal at 11th level, the MT has to wait until 14th. A wizard can teleport around at 9th level, the MT can't do it until 12th. And so forth. Heck, the MT has to wait until 8th level just to cast a 5-die fireball.

 

[Lord Rasputin]

Too bad this is not an AFD joke. Sheer munchkinism.

I wonder if it would work if the caster needed 3rd-level spell casting skill and had all saves poor. Really ... his Will save at 20th level +11 base, +12 if he were to single-class. Not much sacrifice in my book. The WotC version, at 20th level, is +15. I know this is a "feature" of PrCs and multiclassing, but with this PrC, one would need to tone everything down.

 

[WattsHumphrey]

Name them.

See how long it takes for the Mystic Theurge to buff himself up to the same attack bonus, saves, and hit points as the cleric has. At that point, the cleric is up by that number of rounds of melee.

I'm with the minority. I don't see anything wrong with the MT.

I don't want to get into an argument, as I don't tend to win them but I would like to try to answer your question as I'm curious to know if the class really is that good or not.

Attack Bonus: Divine power. The cleric/wiz can have as low a bab as possible, but it's all made up for by divine power, and at higher levels persistant divine power.

Saves: Well, I generally prefer the tactic of not being hit over the tactic of buffing saves, but here's my take. As far as saves go, either character stands about the same chance as buffing them, so the only workable comparison is base saves. This guy'll have higher will than either of the other two would alone, what with three classes all having high will. He'll have lower base ref than either of the other two would have. He'll have lower fort than a straight cleric, but higher than a wiz... and not by all that much. Summary: this guy won't be avoiding ref saves without some buffs and he's more vulnerable to fort than a cleric, but not than a wizard. Saves appear to not be an issue.

HP: Hmm, not much I can say there. While there are a few spells that a wiz can use to buff his hps, there aren't enough to make up for the amazing lack that this guy'll be getting. I'd rectify this as follows:

AC: Wowza. As far as AC goes, this guy has all the benefits of both types of magic to keep him from being hit. Between Magic Vestment, Shield, Mage Armor, Haste, and everything else, his AC should skyrocket. Though this doesn't totally fix the problem of low hps (i.e. power words... suprise rounds... crits... etc), it generally can keep you far away from being hit.

I can see some problems of the class myself... the number one being that as a melee character, this guy'll have some problems. His HP will probably prevent him from going into melee whenever someone might dispel him. The second problem is that he'll be stuck taking feats that'll compensate him for his weaknesses. Spell Penetration and Spell Girding pop into my head first and foremost. The second third is that as far as offensive capability goes, he'll have his share, but it'll never equal someone who went for PrC's that better suit that purpose. Take the Spell Power ability (archmage, red wizard)... take Improved Metamagic (incantatrix)... this character'll lose out on all of them.

On the flip side, think of versatility. This person's a walking ball of abilities. He can cure, attack, buff, move(teleport or plane shift)... do just about everything that anyone would normally purchase items to do if they didn't have the ability themselves. Metamagic feats will probably be your friend, as you'll have two classes to get a lot of use out of. Crafting will also be majorly useful, as you have the ability to make almost any item in the game (no monk's tatoos *sob*).

So basically, you lose out on a LOT of oomph from a straight wizard's blasting power to get a lot of versatility. You lose out on a LOT of oomph from a straight cleric's ability to hit things in physical combat. You lose out on a LOT of oomph from what someone with other PrC's would get... depending on what beyond the DMG is allowed. You gain an absolute TON of versatility.

So if you value versatility, this class is somewhat overpowered. If you value sheer power... I dont' think there's anything to worry about. Because of this tradeoff, I'd like to see it in play before I completely crusify it.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Dark Eternal - how often does the cleric complain that having to use all his spells up for healing is bad? Wouldn't he be far happier if there was a second cleric in the group?

Next: What the hell do you think the cleric does to almost every other class? It's entirely possible to produce a cleric which steps on someones toes.

I fail to see why this is a problem.

I'm in the camp that says this class is a good thing, BUT I'd have preferred a solution to the 'multiclassed caster' problem in general to a single PrC which addresses the problem for a limited number of multiclass combinations.

 

[MerricB]

My problem with the Mystic Theurge is the sheer number of buffs + healing that it is capable of producing. Especially the long-duration 1 hour/level buffs that effectively last the whole day anyway. Think of it this way: a Wiz3/Clr3/MT10 is basically a 16th-level character that casts offensively as a Wiz13 and buffs like a Clr13. Sound scary?

Quite frankly, no.

A cleric is scary with his buffs because:
* He has a decent BAB
* He has decent Hit Points
* He can wear armour.

the MT has none of those things.

Cheers!

 

[Hygric]

I actually like the look of this class. Is it balanced? I don't know yet, but my instinct is telling me that it would be ok balance wise.

With the 3.5 haste not allowing two spells per round, this class will miss the big hitting spells for instant devistation. What it will have is endurance, and lots of it! A perfect prestige class for smaller parties, or parties where no-one wants to play a cleric.