ruleslawyer
Registered User
The one advantage of Clr/Sor/MT is that you are combining sorcerer spontaneity with cleric spell selection, which does serve to balance out the situation a bit vs. the Clr/Wiz/MT.
Mystic Theurge - What do I need to know?
- Thread starter Cyri'kazzen the Drow
- Start date
Lazybones
Adventurer
I agree with those who noted that the class is weaker at lower levels and stronger at higher levels. At near-max for the PRC (say Wiz3/Clr3/MT8-10), it's a VERY nice class with a lot of flexibility. And at the high-end, in the 18-20th level range, the MT can have access to the top level spells (although it'll probably have to choose one base class to focus on, after maxxing out MT, to get access to the best spells). A Wiz7/Clr3/MT10 can cast 9th level wizard spells and 7th level cleric spells (and have over 80 (!) other spells memorized after that), and that ain't too shabby.
Depends also on your setting. Does your campaign allow for frequent rests/breaks, or do you go out "into the wild" for long stretches without the chance to stop and recover spells? If the latter, then the MT's spell list will have you casting spells when even the sorcerers in the party have dried up.
The other difficulty is that you really have to plan ahead when choosing your stats. Since you have to jack up two spellcasting stats (unless you take the option mentioned above and use a class in a supplement that allows for divine spellcasting based on CHA), your other stats will likely have to suffer. I plotted out a W/C/MT up to 20th level, and had to plan each one of my 1/4 level stat increases in advance at character creation in order to ensure I could cast all the spells I was entitled to at each level.
Another interesting thing to consider is adding another prestige class after you max MT; I'd considered going archmage for the final four levels.
If you're starting at 9th level, I'd go Wiz3/Clr3/Mt3. 10th level would be better, since you could cast 4th level spells in both classes, while a "pure" caster in either would only be casting 5th level spells, better but not THAT much better. You'll notice an odd-even progression like that where your gap grows and shrinks with each subsequent level gained.
Depends also on your setting. Does your campaign allow for frequent rests/breaks, or do you go out "into the wild" for long stretches without the chance to stop and recover spells? If the latter, then the MT's spell list will have you casting spells when even the sorcerers in the party have dried up.
The other difficulty is that you really have to plan ahead when choosing your stats. Since you have to jack up two spellcasting stats (unless you take the option mentioned above and use a class in a supplement that allows for divine spellcasting based on CHA), your other stats will likely have to suffer. I plotted out a W/C/MT up to 20th level, and had to plan each one of my 1/4 level stat increases in advance at character creation in order to ensure I could cast all the spells I was entitled to at each level.
Another interesting thing to consider is adding another prestige class after you max MT; I'd considered going archmage for the final four levels.
If you're starting at 9th level, I'd go Wiz3/Clr3/Mt3. 10th level would be better, since you could cast 4th level spells in both classes, while a "pure" caster in either would only be casting 5th level spells, better but not THAT much better. You'll notice an odd-even progression like that where your gap grows and shrinks with each subsequent level gained.
Psion
Adventurer
MT, weak at low (class) levels, strong at high levels after your double level rate has been pumping for a while.
Practiced spellcaster is a good option.
I'd prefer wizard over sorcerer because getting spells one level later really hurts.
Pick your spells carefully. Frex, as a wizard, don't waste your time with spells you know you can get off the cleric list (like buff spells).
Practiced spellcaster is a good option.
I'd prefer wizard over sorcerer because getting spells one level later really hurts.
Pick your spells carefully. Frex, as a wizard, don't waste your time with spells you know you can get off the cleric list (like buff spells).
Jeff Wilder
First Post
I'm playing a mystic theurge right now (just hit 5th level in the class, but he has a Smoking Eye, so he's 12th level total. 3/3/5(+1 ECL.)) Couple of suggestions:
All Charisma, All Spontaneous sounds good in theory, but if you can swing the two high stats, go with Wisdom and Intelligence. The theurge's saves suck, except for Will, and that one will suck as well without a pump from Wisdom. Similarly, the theurge has only 2 skill points per level, but a great skill list, so Intelligence is nice for the bonus points. What I'm saying is, you get more from Wisdom and Intelligence than just save DCs, and the theurge needs what you get.
If your DM will go for it (and most should, as it fits the class perfectly), use the cloistered cleric from Unearthed Arcana. It gives you access to another domain (Knowledge), more skills and skill points, and some alternate spells (e.g., identify) which will save you room in your spellbook. The cloistered cleric's weaknesses compared to the cleric (HPs and BAB) are things the theurge can never be better than mediocre at; as is usual in D&D, you'll be more effective if you emphasize what you're good at, even at the expense of making yourself worse at what you're bad at.
Depending on how your DM handles familiars, I wouldn't bother with one. (You might even see about swapping out the ability; again, see Unearthed Arcana.) It will have horrible HPs, and will never progress into the really cool familiar abilities. The exception is if your DM is pretty much "live and let live" with familiars, or actually generous in how he plays them, in which case they're as useful as always.
If you decide to specialize as a wizard, remember that you can use your divine spells to cover some of the bases in your prohibited schools. Similarly, as with the identify example, above, you're going to be able to save spellbook choices by preparing spells that are available to both classes as a cleric. There are also spells -- e.g., blindness/deafness, bestow curse -- where you'll get them at an earlier level through one class than through the other. It's not always advantageous to use the lower-level side, but it's close to always.
Look for spells that have extreme cross-spellcasting usefulness. An obvious example is spectral hand; it's a second-level wizard spell that will last an entire combat, and that, in addition to the usual wizardly uses, will let you cast cures, inflicts, or bestow curses without exposing yourself to nasty melee.
I'll second the utility of Practiced Spellcaster. I'll even go one further and suggest you petition your DM to rename it "Versatile Spellcaster" and allow the +4 caster level bonus to be split. If not, you'll probably have to bite the bullet and take Practiced Spellcaster twice and eat the wasted +1/+1 of caster levels. You'll also want Spell Penetration by the time you're 12th level. Finally, I strongly suggest picking up Craft Wondrous Items as soon as possible. You'll be able to at least partially compensate for many of the theurge's weaknesses by cranking out some homemade magic.
In conclusion, I've really had a great time with my theurge, even to the extent that when he was bludgeoned to death by holy literature (don't ask, I'm still bitter), I agreed to have him raised, and I hate the Respawn Philosophy of D&D; I nearly always make my dead PCs stay dead. Just be careful and play smart, smarter than with any other character type in the game, and you'll really enjoy the seemingly endless spells. You'll never be a walking Howitzer, but you'll also never lack for something useful to contribute in an encounter.
All Charisma, All Spontaneous sounds good in theory, but if you can swing the two high stats, go with Wisdom and Intelligence. The theurge's saves suck, except for Will, and that one will suck as well without a pump from Wisdom. Similarly, the theurge has only 2 skill points per level, but a great skill list, so Intelligence is nice for the bonus points. What I'm saying is, you get more from Wisdom and Intelligence than just save DCs, and the theurge needs what you get.
If your DM will go for it (and most should, as it fits the class perfectly), use the cloistered cleric from Unearthed Arcana. It gives you access to another domain (Knowledge), more skills and skill points, and some alternate spells (e.g., identify) which will save you room in your spellbook. The cloistered cleric's weaknesses compared to the cleric (HPs and BAB) are things the theurge can never be better than mediocre at; as is usual in D&D, you'll be more effective if you emphasize what you're good at, even at the expense of making yourself worse at what you're bad at.
Depending on how your DM handles familiars, I wouldn't bother with one. (You might even see about swapping out the ability; again, see Unearthed Arcana.) It will have horrible HPs, and will never progress into the really cool familiar abilities. The exception is if your DM is pretty much "live and let live" with familiars, or actually generous in how he plays them, in which case they're as useful as always.
If you decide to specialize as a wizard, remember that you can use your divine spells to cover some of the bases in your prohibited schools. Similarly, as with the identify example, above, you're going to be able to save spellbook choices by preparing spells that are available to both classes as a cleric. There are also spells -- e.g., blindness/deafness, bestow curse -- where you'll get them at an earlier level through one class than through the other. It's not always advantageous to use the lower-level side, but it's close to always.
Look for spells that have extreme cross-spellcasting usefulness. An obvious example is spectral hand; it's a second-level wizard spell that will last an entire combat, and that, in addition to the usual wizardly uses, will let you cast cures, inflicts, or bestow curses without exposing yourself to nasty melee.
I'll second the utility of Practiced Spellcaster. I'll even go one further and suggest you petition your DM to rename it "Versatile Spellcaster" and allow the +4 caster level bonus to be split. If not, you'll probably have to bite the bullet and take Practiced Spellcaster twice and eat the wasted +1/+1 of caster levels. You'll also want Spell Penetration by the time you're 12th level. Finally, I strongly suggest picking up Craft Wondrous Items as soon as possible. You'll be able to at least partially compensate for many of the theurge's weaknesses by cranking out some homemade magic.
In conclusion, I've really had a great time with my theurge, even to the extent that when he was bludgeoned to death by holy literature (don't ask, I'm still bitter), I agreed to have him raised, and I hate the Respawn Philosophy of D&D; I nearly always make my dead PCs stay dead. Just be careful and play smart, smarter than with any other character type in the game, and you'll really enjoy the seemingly endless spells. You'll never be a walking Howitzer, but you'll also never lack for something useful to contribute in an encounter.
jayaint
First Post
Power curve
I think the MT has a very unique power curve to it, in several ways. In a two player party, with a MT and a sword-n-board I think the MT would ROCK. So useful and so powerful and with CR's cut down to just a two person party, the MT would still be able to hold his/her own.
Now in a 4 player party.. the MT is kind of a waste. Okay, not just kind of. If there are any other single classed casters you are WAY behind them power wise, and you are taking up a rogue's or a bard's spot which would probably be of more assistance to the party.
But, once you climb up to a 6 player party... You become the MacGuyver of the group and will often find that you somehow are the only one standing at the end of a lot of fights, and only because of your wits, a lucky roll, and creative spell usage. You become the glue that holds a large party together.
Also, I find that going, for instance, aasimaar and cler/sor, while WAY slowing down the progression, and keeping you not quite as powerful... makes for a more enjoyable character with more plot hooks for the DM and allows you to EVOLVE or become a more powerful character... in the end, in a campaign-flavor-world sort of way.
Just my two cp's.
I think the MT has a very unique power curve to it, in several ways. In a two player party, with a MT and a sword-n-board I think the MT would ROCK. So useful and so powerful and with CR's cut down to just a two person party, the MT would still be able to hold his/her own.
Now in a 4 player party.. the MT is kind of a waste. Okay, not just kind of. If there are any other single classed casters you are WAY behind them power wise, and you are taking up a rogue's or a bard's spot which would probably be of more assistance to the party.
But, once you climb up to a 6 player party... You become the MacGuyver of the group and will often find that you somehow are the only one standing at the end of a lot of fights, and only because of your wits, a lucky roll, and creative spell usage. You become the glue that holds a large party together.
Also, I find that going, for instance, aasimaar and cler/sor, while WAY slowing down the progression, and keeping you not quite as powerful... makes for a more enjoyable character with more plot hooks for the DM and allows you to EVOLVE or become a more powerful character... in the end, in a campaign-flavor-world sort of way.
Just my two cp's.
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