Mystic Theurge

Status
Not open for further replies.

rich

First Post
I have a few questions about this PrC and what happens at Epic Levels. Sorry the post is so long -- I hope someone will be patient enough to read through it all and help me understand the rules better ;)

Assume my character is 3rd Wiz/3rd Cleric. I then start gaining levels as a Mystic Theurge. At character level 13 I am 3rd Wiz/3rd Cleric/10th MT, with spell lists similar to a 13th Wiz and a 13th Cleric, but I still only have the class abilities of a 3rd Wiz/3rd Cleric. Is this true?

At character level 14 I could gain another level as Wizard, and be 4th Wiz/3rd Cleric/10th MT, with spells lists similar to a 14th Wiz and a 13th Cleric. Is this also true?

By character level 20, I would be 7th Wiz/3rd Cleric/10th Mt, with spells lists as a 17th Wiz/13th Cleric. I am now (or will be next level) an "Epic" character, but not an "Epic" Wizard, since I'm really only a 7th level Wizard. So I can continue gaining Wizard levels and increase my Wizard class abilities without using the Epic Wizard rules -- is this also correct? The only problem is that by character level 23 (10th Wiz), my arcane spell list will be the same as a 20th level Wizard. Does this mean I can't gain any new spell slots?

Now, back to the Mystic Theurge PrC. This PrC gives the following benefits:

"Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly."

But the Epic Mystic Theurge (according to the SRD) is described differently:

"Spells: When an odd-numbered mystic theurge level above 10th is gained she gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known by that class. Her caster level in that class also increases by +1. When an even-numbered mystic theurge level above 10th is gained she gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had gained a level in a divine spellcasting class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known by that class. Her caster level in that class also increases by +1."

The Epic MT appears completely useless! I get the same spells if I gain alternating Wiz/Cleric levels, plus the class benefits! How does this make sense? Am I missing something here?
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

rich said:
Assume my character is 3rd Wiz/3rd Cleric. I then start gaining levels as a Mystic Theurge. At character level 13 I am 3rd Wiz/3rd Cleric/10th MT, with spell lists similar to a 13th Wiz and a 13th Cleric, but I still only have the class abilities of a 3rd Wiz/3rd Cleric. Is this true?
You would be 16th level at this point, but otherwise, you are correct. You don't get the wizard's bonus feats or familiar advancement, and the clerics turn undead doesn't get any better either.

rich said:
At character level 14 I could gain another level as Wizard, and be 4th Wiz/3rd Cleric/10th MT, with spells lists similar to a 14th Wiz and a 13th Cleric. Is this also true?
You would be 17th level.

rich said:
By character level 20, I would be 7th Wiz/3rd Cleric/10th Mt, with spells lists as a 17th Wiz/13th Cleric. I am now (or will be next level) an "Epic" character, but not an "Epic" Wizard, since I'm really only a 7th level Wizard. So I can continue gaining Wizard levels and increase my Wizard class abilities without using the Epic Wizard rules -- is this also correct? The only problem is that by character level 23 (10th Wiz), my arcane spell list will be the same as a 20th level Wizard. Does this mean I can't gain any new spell slots?
You are epic at that point, so you could choose epic feats with the ones your character gains at 21st, 24th, 27th, etc. levels if you meet the prerequisites. If you gain a bonus feat (say at 10th level wizard), you may not choose an epic feat, since the class granting the feat is not epic. You are also correct about not gaining any new spells per day.

rich said:
The Epic MT appears completely useless! I get the same spells if I gain alternating Wiz/Cleric levels, plus the class benefits! How does this make sense? Am I missing something here?
Yes the epic Mystic Theurge is almost completely useless, except that is grants a bonus epic feat at every sixth? level. It is almost always to your advantage to take wizard or cleric levels instead.
 

One of the changes I made to the Mystic Theurge's Epic progression is, to grant 3 caster levels per 2 levels, spread between the character's existing Arcane and Divine classes. Sort of like:

Code:
Level ... Class A ... Class B
 11 ...... +1 ......... +1
 12 ...... +0 ......... +1
 13 ...... +1 ......... +1
 14 ...... +1 ......... +0

The player chooses which is "Class A" and which is "Class B"; bonus epic feats remains 1 per 6 levels. With the above, a Wizard(5)/Cleric(5)/Mystic Theurge(15) would cast spells as a Wizard(18)/Cleric(18). ^_^

If the spellcasting at epic levels is kept to the rate put forward by WOTC, then the 1/6 epic feat rate is stupidly underpowered, and it'd (IMO) have to go to 1/3, to be a balanced epic progression.
 

Pax said:
One of the changes I made to the Mystic Theurge's Epic progression is, to grant 3 caster levels per 2 levels, spread between the character's existing Arcane and Divine classes. Sort of like:

Code:
Level ... Class A ... Class B
 11 ...... +1 ......... +1
 12 ...... +0 ......... +1
 13 ...... +1 ......... +1
 14 ...... +1 ......... +0

The player chooses which is "Class A" and which is "Class B"; bonus epic feats remains 1 per 6 levels. With the above, a Wizard(5)/Cleric(5)/Mystic Theurge(15) would cast spells as a Wizard(18)/Cleric(18). ^_^

If the spellcasting at epic levels is kept to the rate put forward by WOTC, then the 1/6 epic feat rate is stupidly underpowered, and it'd (IMO) have to go to 1/3, to be a balanced epic progression.

Even this is underpowered, you'll be falling so far behind in CL that the char is unplayable around 30th level.

IMO, Just forget about EpicMT progression and make a new PrC that requires you to cast 9th level spells from ARC and DIV lists and K(Arc) and K(Rel) at 25 ranks. Its gives +1 ARC and DIV per level and 1/3 or 1/4 Epic feats.
 

Even this is underpowered, you'll be falling so far behind in CL that the char is unplayable around 30th level.
It's better than any of hte alternatives.

Wizard(10)/Cleric(10)/Mystic Theurge(10) ... 20th level caster for both Wizard and Cleric, 30th level character. No bonus epic feats, slightly increased class abilities (5 levels each of wizard and cleric).

Wizard(5)/Cleric(5)/Epic Mystic Theurge(20), using WOTC's progression ... 20th level caster for both Wizard and Cleric, 30th level character. One bonus epic feat, but no increased class abilities.

Wizard(5)/Cleric(5)/Epic Mystic Theurge(20), using my progression ... 22d level caster for Wizard, 23d level caster for Cleric, 30th level character. One bonus epic feat, but no increased class abilities.

Of the three, purely for spellcasting, which do you think looks, overall, to truly be the "best" ... ?

And, "underpowered" ... ? What do you WANT, continued 2:1 spellcasting? Then you'd never have a reason NOT to take Mystic Theurge. Ever. And that woudl be broken.

1:! isn't enough. 2:1 is too much. 3:2 is right in the middle of the two, and IMO, just right.
 

Thanks!

thanks guys for your help (and thanks thorian for correcting my math!) :cool:
so if the PrC is so useless, what was WotC thinking??? :confused:
 

rich said:
thanks guys for your help (and thanks thorian for correcting my math!) :cool:
so if the PrC is so useless, what was WotC thinking??? :confused:
The PRC wasn't designed for epic levels. It was designed to make arcane/divine multiclass combinations more viable, pre-Epic. And it does a good job of that.

In Epic levels it's still better to advaince single class or Prc that increases caster levels.
 



Pax said:
It's better than any of hte alternatives.

Wizard(10)/Cleric(10)/Mystic Theurge(10) ... 20th level caster for both Wizard and Cleric, 30th level character. No bonus epic feats, slightly increased class abilities (5 levels each of wizard and cleric).

10CL behind your ECL, if your DM is not compensating for you, you're dead and worthless to your group as anything other than a cohort.

Wizard(5)/Cleric(5)/Epic Mystic Theurge(20), using WOTC's progression ... 20th level caster for both Wizard and Cleric, 30th level character. One bonus epic feat, but no increased class abilities.

Same as above, not a viable PC.

Wizard(5)/Cleric(5)/Epic Mystic Theurge(20), using my progression ... 22d level caster for Wizard, 23d level caster for Cleric, 30th level character. One bonus epic feat, but no increased class abilities.

Slightly better off, ESP will give you a shot at using offensive magic, but you're still a drag on the party.

Of the three, purely for spellcasting, which do you think looks, overall, to truly be the "best" ... ?

WIZ3/CLR3/MT10/LOR14 ... WIZ20/CLR20, Better skills, Better specials, One EBF and 1/3 progression ongoing... Better than the 3 options above, but not viable for much longer.

And, "underpowered" ... ? What do you WANT, continued 2:1 spellcasting? Then you'd never have a reason NOT to take Mystic Theurge. Ever. And that would be broken.

Eventually, Yes. You have to go to 2:1 or the class dies.

1:1 isn't enough. 2:1 is too much. 3:2 is right in the middle of the two, and IMO, just right.

If you dont keep up your CL you become useless real fast. Once the Character has 9th/9th he has everything hes going to get, let him keep up.
The only question from there on is at what level behind in CL do you want to keep him. -6 to -7 lets him spend some precious feats to overcome his weakness. 1/3 EBF lets him concentrate and keep the gap with a straight caster steady for 1 class or split his feats and at least grow a little in both classes.
All in all, do what I said above, make a new PrC that lets him in starting at @ 25th level with 2:1 and 1/3(4?).
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top