Mystic Theurge

[Pax]

10CL behind your ECL, if your DM is not compensating for you, you're dead and worthless to your group as anything other than a cohort.

Really, now? So all the healing you can do, all the buffing, is good for nothing ... ? HAHAHAHA, that's just silly.

Is WOTC's progression s\ignificantly sub-optimal? Of course it is. But that doesn't make the character useless; you don't have to be able to single-handedly slay hordes of Great Wyrm dragons, to be "useful".

Slightly better off, ESP will give you a shot at using offensive magic, but you're still a drag on the party.

A drag on the party? Good lord, man, whatever are you smoking? You're TWO epic spellcasters. Epic Spell Penetration puts you only 1 or 2 levels behind on getting through SR, and a sigle Orange Prism ioun stone gies another +1!

You've got two domains with all their powers, 9th level divine spells (4+domain at each level, before bonus spells from wisdom), and 9th level arcane spells (4+specialist at each level, before bonus spells from intelligence). Oh, and one bonus Epic feat.

With at least some spells, Spell Thematics makes for a +1 caster level boost (arcane only, sadly). Tattoo Focus, for a specialist wizard, is another +1 boost.

WIZ3/CLR3/MT10/LOR14 ... WIZ20/CLR20, Better skills, Better specials, One EBF and 1/3 progression ongoing... Better than the 3 options above, but not viable for much longer.

What part of "of the three" did you not get?

Besides which, let's look at your two options, andpick them apart for the less-optimal choices they truly are.

WIZ20/CLR20
NO bonus epic feat. Possibly better domain powers, if they were level-dependant. Better turning of undead. Better familiar, a few bonus Wizard feats. WORSE caster level (W20/C20, instead of W22/C23 or W23/C22).

Oh, and by the way, this is a fortieth level character - we're comparing thirtieth level characters! So, we should compare your W20/C20 caster levels to a Wizard(5)/Cleric(5)/Epic Mystic Theurge(30):
... using WOTC's progression, caster levels are W25/C25. Better than straight Wiz/Cle. Alternately, Wiz(15)/Cle(15)/MT(10) gives the same W25/C25 caster levels, and gives almost the same OTHER class benefits as the straight Wiz/Cle.
... using my progression, caster levels are W30/C30 ... far better than straight Wiz/Cle!! With Epic Spell Penetration, an ioun stone, and nothign else ... you're all of three measley points behind in spell penetration for BOTH classes. You could lose more than that, sticking with just ONE of the two base classes, and shopping for single-progression prestige classes. And you still call a 3:2 progression useless ... ?

... munchkins. feh.


WIZ3/CLR3/MT10/LOR14
Well, at least THIS one is a 30th level character.
Divided evenly, caster level is also only W20/C20. With loremaster caster levels piled onto a single class, W27/C13 or W13/C27. At most, four caster levels better in one, and nine worse in the other.

Eventually, Yes. You have to go to 2:1 or the class dies.

No, you don't. You have to make a CHOICE - keep BOTH classes up, but falling slowly but steadily further behind, or focus on one class only, and not fall behind at all in THAT class, but stop dead in teh water with the other.

Any choice that is stupid NOT to take (or the opposite, as well), is no choice at all - and that means, it's broken. Either too powerful, or too weak ... broken is broken.

And unlimited 2:1 caster progression is just that - broken.

If you dont keep up your CL you become useless real fast.

No, you don't. There are feats. You might negotiate an Epic spell which Fortifies your SR penetration, with your GM. You can research and craft new magic items - epic versions of the orange prism Ioun stone, for example.

Once the Character has 9th/9th he has everything hes going to get, let him keep up.

No.

There has to be SOME incentive to do OTHER things instead. Making the CL rise faster than possible, for those who want to keep their two "halves" reasonably balanced, is quite sufficient.

The only question from there on is at what level behind in CL do you want to keep him. -6 to -7 lets him spend some precious feats to overcome his weakness. 1/3 EBF lets him concentrate and keep the gap with a straight caster steady for 1 class or split his feats and at least grow a little in both classes.
All in all, do what I said above, make a new PrC that lets him in starting at @ 25th level with 2:1 and 1/3(4?).

As a GM, I'd laugh that suggestion right out the door. That's better than the Epic progression for the Mystic Theurge, yet, it's exactly the effect of hte Mystic Theurge.

IF (and it's a big if) I felt that a trailing caster level was going to be a problem, well ... I'd sooner introduce one or more new Epic feats, that gave Caster-level-like benefits to folks with at least CL20 for both arcane and divine magic. IOW, for epic MTs. For example, I might dig into Unearthed Arcana, pull up the Magic Rating option, and craft an Epic feat that gave the benefits of that system to multiclass spellcasters. For a pure Wiz/Cle/MT, that'd mean that caster elvel (but not spells per day) would be equal to their CHARACTER level. Slightly less, if they broke out into a non-spellcasting class, or took less-than-1:1 spellcasting prestige classes.

 

[sithramir]

I would just like to agree with Pax who actually spent the time to explain that. Epic MT should not have any further spellcasting levels at epic than was given by WoTC. Complaining that your caster level is going to be much lower is not a viable option. It's one of the ONLY setbacks the mystic theuge has. Oh darn I can't blast him with my meteor swarm to beat his SR I guess i'll just spend some rounds casting mass heal on all my comrads. Gaining 9th level spells in TWO spellcasting levels is already insane enough as it is.

It's been pointed out that you can spend resources to have your caster level be nearly equal to your level WHILE still casting 9th level spells.

If you are worried about that you should do what was suggested. Stop gaining spellcasting at 13th level in one of the classes and focus on the other the rest of the way. You basically end up only 3 behind which can be boosted with spell pen feats, ioun stone, etc. You would still gain all the benefits of casting as a full fledged wizard and just happen to have up to 7th level clerical spells. That covers most of the useful ones like heal, harm, blade barrier, flame strike, any healing of lower levels, communes, augury, etc. WHILE still competing with someone who went straight wizard.

I play in an epic game as a mystic theurge and my character is just blatantly sickly powerful. The three other players in the group feared me because they weren't quite sure they could beat me 3 vs 1! It was a cleric, a half-celestial archmage, and full thief. The fact that I could do everything the 3 of them together could do by myself if needed along with them being scared of a 3 vs 1 shows how powerful it is at those levels already.

I'd go for things like archmage or other classes to gain more other useful abilities like spell likes, arcane fire, etc. Remember that if you are that worried about SR you can always use your fourth level spell "lower spell resistance" which is quite broken and will make you able to beat ANYONE with SR by expending maybe 1-2 or at most 3 4th level spells. Having their SR lowered by 15 with a fort save LESS your caster level is pretty gross.

 

[Marshall]

Really, now? So all the healing you can do, all the buffing, is good for nothing ... ? HAHAHAHA, that's just silly.

Is WOTC's progression significantly sub-optimal? Of course it is. But that doesn't make the character useless; you don't have to be able to single-handedly slay hordes of Great Wyrm dragons, to be "useful".[/quote]

What of anything other than a cohort didn't you understand?

A drag on the party? Good lord, man, whatever are you smoking? You're TWO epic spellcasters. Epic Spell Penetration puts you only 1 or 2 levels behind on getting through SR, and a single Orange Prism ioun stone gies another +1!

Epic spellcasting is overrated. It costs levels to learn epic spells that generally take a day or more to cast if they accomplish anything.
And you've just spent 3 feats, including one epic, to not even get even with the party CR. Last I checked there are much better options for those feats.

With at least some spells, Spell Thematics makes for a +1 caster level boost (arcane only, sadly). Tattoo Focus, for a specialist wizard, is another +1 boost.

More feats out the door...

What part of "of the three" did you not get?

Besides which, let's look at your two options, andpick them apart for the less-optimal choices they truly are.

I see I confused you, that WIZ20/CLR20 was supposed to represent "cast as a WIZ20/CLR20"

<snip obvious ananlysis>

WIZ3/CLR3/MT10/LOR14
Well, at least THIS one is a 30th level character.
Divided evenly, caster level is also only W20/C20. With loremaster caster levels piled onto a single class, W27/C13 or W13/C27. At most, four caster levels better in one, and nine worse in the other.

Yes, divided evenly. You are 10CL behind your CR, but at least your pulling down 1/3 BEF to help you keep up.

Your 3/2 class is trying to keep his CL up while giving up his BEF's which are the true advancement in Epic levels.

No, you don't. You have to make a CHOICE - keep BOTH classes up, but falling slowly but steadily further behind, or focus on one class only, and not fall behind at all in THAT class, but stop dead in teh water with the other.

Yes, you do. Once your caster levels gets to 20/20 you're done. You gain no new abilities. All the +1/+1 does is maintain. You could just have a class that has Spellpower +1 at each level.

At epic levels its Epic Feats that define caster progression. WIZ and CLR get 1/3 to progress their classes. If the EMT gets 1/3 he can progress ONE of his classes at the same rate as the straight caster. You might drop it to 1/4 because some of his feats will do double duty for both classes.

Any choice that is stupid NOT to take (or the opposite, as well), is no choice at all - and that means, it's broken. Either too powerful, or too weak ... broken is broken.

And your 3/2 is on the opposite category. Not only are you falling behind quickly in CL, you dont have the feats to keep even one class going.

And unlimited 2:1 caster progression is just that - broken.

Thats why spells/day stops at 20/20. 2:1 does nothing but keep you from falling out of vaible after that.

No, you don't. There are feats. You might negotiate an Epic spell which Fortifies your SR penetration, with your GM. You can research and craft new magic items - epic versions of the orange prism Ioun stone, for example.

You can exchange one weakness for another. Give up a bunch of feats, an Epic Spell researched(Lots of gp and xp), magic item slots, etc...

Not to mention that the straight caster can do all that to AND he has a 7+ level advantage over you.

No.

There has to be SOME incentive to do OTHER things instead. Making the CL rise faster than possible, for those who want to keep their two "halves" reasonably balanced, is quite sufficient.

There are the same incentives there has always been, choose to give up your ultra-generalist style and specialize.
Giving a false choice of perpetually falling farther and farther behind is not a viable option.

As a GM, I'd laugh that suggestion right out the door. That's better than the Epic progression for the Mystic Theurge, yet, it's exactly the effect of hte Mystic Theurge.

Yes, it is. The WotC EMT is not a viable option. You should ALWAYS take the LOR at 17th level if you want to keep going at epic levels over it.
My EMT keeps up the flavor without jumping the powercurve. 7 levels behind is nothing to sneeze at, and the feat progression is nothing more than maintenance. And there are still no specials, so you have incentive to find something else to than just cast spells.

IF (and it's a big if) I felt that a trailing caster level was going to be a problem, well ... I'd sooner introduce one or more new Epic feats, that gave Caster-level-like benefits to folks with at least CL20 for both arcane and divine magic. IOW, for epic MTs. For example, I might dig into Unearthed Arcana, pull up the Magic Rating option, and craft an Epic feat that gave the benefits of that system to multiclass spellcasters. For a pure Wiz/Cle/MT, that'd mean that caster elvel (but not spells per day) would be equal to their CHARACTER level. Slightly less, if they broke out into a non-spellcasting class, or took less-than-1:1 spellcasting prestige classes.

If you find 2:1 appears to powerful, the just write it as Spellpower +1 each level. Same effect. But the feats absolutely have to be at least 1/4.

 

[rich]

Where is the epic progression for Mystic Theurge given?!?
Would you tell me?

in the "Epic Prestige Classes" section of the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35)

since I've only played at lower levels, I don't really understand the discussion between Marshall and Pax
what is the problem with having class levels lower than your character level? isn't that true for all multi-class characters?
what advantage (other than familiar, 2 feats, a few more spells) does a Wiz16have over a Wiz3/Cl3/MT3?
also, is Spell Resistance related to class levels rather than caster level?

 

[Pax]

What of anything other than a cohort didn't you understand?

Oh, grow up already. Just because you weren't hte one to deal a direct killing blow to the BBEG, doesn't mean you weren't an equal contributor to the fight. Besides - intead of casting spells directly at your enemy, go for the uber-combat-theurge route. Divine Favor, Righteous Might, Shield of Faith, Divine Power, Shapechange, and Tenser's Transformation. You become an ungodly combat killing machine with those spells! +6 luck bonus to attacks and dsamage, BAB as a fighter, +5 deflection bonus to AC, all the (Su) and (Ex) ability goodness of shapechange, possibly a sky-high natural armor (shapechange to a Kelvezu, for example), and a big bonus to Strength, Dex, and Con - not to mention hitpoints - from Tenser's Transdormation. Then, the Righteous Might makes you BIGGER, on top of the size of whatever you shapechange into.

You can even top that off with a Thunderlance spell (preferably maximised, from a 7th level slot), and you're ready to REALLY kick some monster butt. Or just stick with your two-handed grip on your now-beefy-good wizardly quarterstaff (Greater Magic Weapon'ed to be +5, of course), and go apesh*t on everything in sight.

More feats out the door...

Tattoo Focus notonly raises yoru spell penetration checks by +1 for yoru specialised school, it also increases spell DCs in that school by +1 as well. It's a nice feat. Spell thematics, OTOH, makes it harder to even IDENTIFY your spells, and thus, harder to counterspell them. And for one spell per spell level, your caster level is increased by 1 - longer duration, more damage, better dispel resistance, higher SR penetration, etc, etc, etc.

Yes, divided evenly. You are 10CL behind your CR, but at least your pulling down 1/3 BEF to help you keep up.

Your 3/2 class is trying to keep his CL up while giving up his BEF's which are the true advancement in Epic levels.

No, on that point you're dead wrong. Look at my SIG; I've been running an Epic arena for over a year now (something near two years, IIRC). Bonus epic feats are nice, but hardly the be-all, end-all. I've een built characters that looked at the epic feats available to them ... and yawned, because there wasn't anything USEFUL to them, anywhere among them.

Bonus epic feats are nice, yes - but hardly required.

Yes, you do. Once your caster levels gets to 20/20 you're done. You gain no new abilities. All the +1/+1 does is maintain. You could just have a class that has Spellpower +1 at each level.

Tell me, exactly why do you think your Wizard(5)/Cleric(5)/Epic Theurge(20) should be only slightly less adept at casting Cleric spells than a Cleric(30), AND be only slightly less adept at casting Cleric spells than a Wizard(30) ... !

In other words, why should your 30th level character be as good a spellcaster as a Wizard(25)/Cleric(25) ... ?

Justify it. Tell me what you gave UP, to have earned that degree of power.

Your 2:1 progression would give you:

(A) normal spellcasting for your Wizard spells, at 1:1;
(B) a bonus improvement of 1:1 spellcasting for your Cleric spells;
(C) A bonus epic feat every 6th level

Compare that to, say, the Epic Wizard, which getsL

(A) normal spellcasting for your Wizard spells, at 1:1;
(B) A bonus epic feat every 3d level

So why in the nine hells should you get as many bonus epic feats, AND the 2:1 spellcasting proigression? IMC, if I allowed a class with 2:1 spellcastig withan open-ended progression at epic levels ... it'd get a bonus feat every ten levels. If that often!

Thats why spells/day stops at 20/20. 2:1 does nothing but keep you from falling out of vaible after that.

The entire point is, you shoudlnot progress as well as someone withonly ONE, instead of TWO, spellcasting classes.

You can exchange one weakness for another. Give up a bunch of feats, an Epic Spell researched(Lots of gp and xp), magic item slots, etc...

Yes, in fact that is what balance is all about. Noone gets to be "I am everything, bow before me". At least, not if you've progressed beyond the silly munchkinism of the average eleven-year-old newbie.

My EMT keeps up the flavor without jumping the powercurve. 7 levels behind is nothing to sneeze at, and the feat progression is nothing more than maintenance. And there are still no specials, so you have incentive to find something else to than just cast spells.

Your epic Theurge doesn't even have a casual familiarity with what a powercurve IS. It's stupid, is what it is - 1:1 casting, and 1:3 epic feats? That's Epic Wizard and Epic Cleric combined into a single class.

If you find 2:1 appears to powerful, the just write it as Spellpower +1 each level. Same effect. But the feats absolutely have to be at least 1/4.

Same effect = no difference in lack of proximity to a sane power curve = not even close to balanced.

 

[Marshall]

Oh, grow up already. Just because you weren't the one to deal a direct killing blow to the BBEG, doesn't mean you weren't an equal contributor to the fight.

Yep, you've played the role of the other PC's cohort...

Besides - intead of casting spells directly at your enemy, go for the uber-combat-theurge route. Divine Favor, Righteous Might, Shield of Faith, Divine Power, Shapechange, and Tenser's Transformation. You become an ungodly combat killing machine with those spells! +6 luck bonus to attacks and dsamage, BAB as a fighter, +5 deflection bonus to AC, all the (Su) and (Ex) ability goodness of shapechange, possibly a sky-high natural armor (shapechange to a Kelvezu, for example), and a big bonus to Strength, Dex, and Con - not to mention hitpoints - from Tenser's Transdormation. Then, the Righteous Might makes you BIGGER, on top of the size of whatever you shapechange into.

If I wanted to play a FTR, I'd play a FTR. And a straight CLR caster will kick the "uber-combat-theurge" into kingdom come EVERY TIME.

You can even top that off with a Thunderlance spell (preferably maximised, from a 7th level slot), and you're ready to REALLY kick some monster butt. Or just stick with your two-handed grip on your now-beefy-good wizardly quarterstaff (Greater Magic Weapon'ed to be +5, of course), and go apesh*t on everything in sight.

Very broken spell and see above.

Tattoo Focus not only raises your spell penetration checks by +1 for yoru specialised school, it also increases spell DCs in that school by +1 as well. It's a nice feat.

Thats available to the straight caster, too. More cheaply even, because he's got the non-epic and Epic bonus feats to take it.

Spell thematics, OTOH, makes it harder to even IDENTIFY your spells, and thus, harder to counterspell them. And for one spell per spell level, your caster level is increased by 1 - longer duration, more damage, better dispel resistance, higher SR penetration, etc, etc, etc.

The spellcraft bonus isn't enough to matter at this level and the +1 CL applies to so few spells as to be nearly meaningless...Useful? Occasionally. Good? No.

No, on that point you're dead wrong. Look at my SIG; I've been running an Epic arena for over a year now (something near two years, IIRC). Bonus epic feats are nice, but hardly the be-all, end-all. I've even built characters that looked at the epic feats available to them ... and yawned, because there wasn't anything USEFUL to them, anywhere among them.

Those character are NOT casters, I can assure you. The ONLY way for a caster to progress at epic levels is to spend his bonus feats on ISC and/or Great(Insert Stat) maybe throw in IMM and some MM feats. Without those bonus feats the casters entire spell selection will either drop to not enough damage to account for anything or save DC's so low that they only succeed on a 1.

Bonus epic feats are nice, yes - but hardly required.

For a caster, they are Everything.

Tell me, exactly why do you think your Wizard(5)/Cleric(5)/Epic Theurge(20) should be only slightly less adept at casting Cleric spells than a Cleric(30), AND be only slightly less adept at casting Wizard spells than a Wizard(30) ... !

Because thats ALL the character does! He's given up all the combat potential of the CLR and given up all the, admittedly few, secondary abilites of the WIZ and given up taking any other prestige route. All that, just to be 7 levels behind both classes(If you go with my EMT).

In other words, why should your 30th level character be as good a spellcaster as a Wizard(25)/Cleric(25) ... ?

Ignoring for the moment that the numbers would actually be 23/23....because he doesnt do anything else a WIZ25 or CLR25 can do or more specifically he is a CLR5 with spells of a CLR20 and a CL of 25 and he's a WIZ5 with the spells of a WIZ20 and a CL of 25(If you allow MT to just continue at epic).

Just to clarify here, my Iconic Epic MT is a WIZ3/CLR3/MT10/LOR8/EMT6 with the LOR levels split even. Thats a CL of WIZ23/CLR23 at level 30 and TWO EBF's.

Justify it. Tell me what you gave UP, to have earned that degree of power.

Your 2:1 progression would give you:

(A) normal spellcasting for your Wizard spells, at 1:1;
(B) a bonus improvement of 1:1 spellcasting for your Cleric spells;
(C) A bonus epic feat every 6th level

Are we talking about the same thing here?
MY EMT progression is 2:1 and 1/3 starting after LVL 24 at the earliest.
That leaves you, at best, as casting spells at -7/-7 to your CR.

Compare that to, say, the Epic Wizard, which getsL

(A) normal spellcasting for your Wizard spells, at 1:1;
(B) A bonus epic feat every 3d level

(C) Epic Familiar - Where they actually start to accomplish something with Familiar Spell.
(D) Ability to trade B & C for a whole slew of worthwhile PrC's that make the MT looks sad.

So why in the nine hells should you get as many bonus epic feats, AND the 2:1 spellcasting proigression? IMC, if I allowed a class with 2:1 spellcastig withan open-ended progression at epic levels ... it'd get a bonus feat every ten levels. If that often!

So what you're saying is that you are one of those bandwagoners who say "2:1 is wayyyy to powerful" without acknowledging what the MT gives up to get it....

The entire point is, you shoudlnot progress as well as someone withonly ONE, instead of TWO, spellcasting classes.

And you dont. To accomplish that, I'd have to give the EMT 2:1 and a 2/3 EBF progression. And I'd have to up his HD and give him more SP and.....

Yes, in fact that is what balance is all about. Noone gets to be "I am everything, bow before me". At least, not if you've progressed beyond the silly munchkinism of the average eleven-year-old newbie.

And when you find someone whos trying that you can pull out the munchkin ribbon to tack on them.

Your epic Theurge doesn't even have a casual familiarity with what a powercurve IS. It's stupid, is what it is - 1:1 casting, and 1:3 epic feats? That's Epic Wizard and Epic Cleric combined into a single class.

Actually, I dont believe you see just how WEAK your version is. Lets demonstrate....We've done the 30lvl analysis above, lets move on to 40...

WIZ40 or CLR40 - 6 EBF concentrated on 1 class

W5/C5/MT10/WotCMT20 = W25/C25 and 3 EBF - 15 CL below ECL and 1.5 EBF per class. I think we'd all agree this is NOT a playable character.

W5/C5/MT10/PaxMT20 = W28/C28(~) and 3 EBF - 12 CL behind and 1.5 EBF per class. SR? You could take those EBF and work on your SP feats, or you could just admit that the entire list of offensive magic for both your spell lists is now off the table...

W7/C7/MT10/MarshallMT16 = W33/C33 and 5 EBF - 7 CL behind in each class gives you the option to spend the feats to get your CL/SP up to par for your CR. 5 EBF let you use that option or concentrate and try to keep up with the straight caster, but note You will NEVER catch him. OR you have the option to keep yourself diversified but hold yourself much closer to the real powercurve.

Want to go on to 50?
PaxMT is now casting at 35/35 with 5 EBF - 15 back on the SR charts with no by-the-book way to overcome more than 1/2 of that and his 2.5 EBF per class is puny compared to the WIZ50 at 10.
Meanwhile, my MT is chugging along at 43/43 with 8 EBF.... Not bad, but not overpowering anybody either....

 

[Caliban]

Is combat really the only thing you do at Epic levels?

 

[Pax]

Yep, you've played the role of the other PC's cohort...

Translation: apparently Marhsal does, indeed, believe that "supporting your allies" is only suited for sidekicks; "real" adventurers slay the BBEG without any help.

Feh.

If I wanted to play a FTR, I'd play a FTR. And a straight CLR caster will kick the "uber-combat-theurge" into kingdom come EVERY TIME.

Oh, really? Let's see, the straight cleric won't have as many hitpoints as the Theurge - better basic HD or not, the Tenser's Transformation spell will be giving him +20d6 temporary hitpoints - and with a Rod of Maximisation (neither lesser nor greater), that's a flat +120hp bonus.

Straight cleric, let's be generous and assume a nice big +8 constitution bonus by various means; average hitpoints per level after 1st comes to 12.5; so, [15 + (29 x 12.5 ) =] 377.5 hitpoints. Call it 378.

Cle(5)/Wiz(5)/EpicMT(20), that's 5d8+25d4, figure the same constitution bonus by similar means; an average of 328.5hp; call it 329. Then add 120 from the Tenser's Transformation ... 448hp. Looks like our "wimpy Theurge" has a seventy-hitpoint lead on the cleric, to ME.

Very broken spell and see above.

Thunderlance, or GMW?

Thats available to the straight caster, too. More cheaply even, because he's got the non-epic and Epic bonus feats to take it.

So? You've held up Epic Spell Penetration as a means of coming close to even, and that takes three feats (one of them Epic).

The spellcraft bonus isn't enough to matter at this level and the +1 CL applies to so few spells as to be nearly meaningless...Useful? Occasionally. Good? No.

The spellcraft bonus would apply to Epic spells, too. And it's usefulness depends on what you're looking for. Some of us like to ROLE play, instead of just ROLL play - and the sher style (coupled with some minor mechanical benefits), makes Spell Thematics a perfectly good feat choice.

Those character are NOT casters, I can assure you.

I'm the primary GM. I have seen, and can review, EVERY character there. And I assure you, there are PLENTY of spellcasters there, who are PLENTY powerful. One of our top-ranked characters is Darien Shieldheart, run by James McMurray - a Wizard/Incantatrix build, and very nearly undefeated. Another powerful build is the cleric-based Syrem.

Before we moved to the 3.5 rules, yet another quite powerful character (though not as good at avoiding defeat as Darien), was my own Dhao Mavri, a Wizard/Archmage/Red Wizard ... and built to be specifically HANDICAPPED, by specialising in Enchantment (which is a BIG drawback in an environment where Mind Blank is to be expected).

You should try actually looking at something before trying to pass judgement on it.

The ONLY way for a caster to progress at epic levels is to spend his bonus feats on ISC and/or Great(Insert Stat) maybe throw in IMM and some MM feats.

Funny. I've found Ignore Material Components tobe highly useful; and Improved Combat Casting means I don't have to keep my Concentration skill at the max.

But even then ... not all epic-level spellcasters have a need for Improved Spell Capacity. It's nice, but hardly required.

Without those bonus feats the casters entire spell selection will either drop to not enough damage to account for anything or save DC's so low that they only succeed on a 1.

ROFLMAO.

You'e obiously never played an actual epic character, have you?

For a caster, they are Everything.

Nope. They are no more required for a spellcaster, than for a nonspellcaster.

Because thats ALL the character does! He's given up all the combat potential of the CLR and given up all the, admittedly few, secondary abilites of the WIZ and given up taking any other prestige route. All that, just to be 7 levels behind both classes(If you go with my EMT).

Oh, I see, so giving up SOME base attack bonus (which can be replaced, and then some, by either a cleric spell or a wizard spell, anyway), and a few hitpoints, is worth being able to cast ALL levels of Wizard spells, nearly as good as a straight wizard can?

Bah.

Ignoring for the moment that the numbers would actually be 23/23

No. Wiz(5)/Cle(5)/EpicMT(20), where the EpicMT stays at 2:1 throughout, would be the same as Wiz(25)/Cle(25) for spellcasting. My progression, which you've also dismissed as "not good enough", would give a 30th level character caster levels of 22 and 23.

....because he doesnt do anything else a WIZ25 or CLR25 can do or more specifically he is a CLR5 with spells of a CLR20 and a CL of 25 and he's a WIZ5 with the spells of a WIZ20 and a CL of 25(If you allow MT to just continue at epic).

So, turn this around -- if you were playing a character who was a Wizard or Cleric, maybe with a prestige class or two, who managed to get 1:1 casting all the way to 30th level ... would you like the idea of the Mystic Theurge beign almost exactly as good at casting spells as you are ... ?

Just to clarify here, my Iconic Epic MT is a WIZ3/CLR3/MT10/LOR8/EMT6 with the LOR levels split even. Thats a CL of WIZ23/CLR23 at level 30 and TWO EBF's.

And I don't give a flying **** what your iconit theurge might be. To compare the theurge to alternate versions of itself, you compare characters with only levels of theurge, and the base classes required to achieve it.

Otherwise you get into wrangling about what other class mixes might be better or worse, and when and where each IS better or worse. For example, Wiz(3)/Cle(3)/Theurge(10)/Archmage(5)/Heirophant(5)/Epic Theurge(4); go for spellpower at each and every Archmage and Heirophant level, and even with the WOTC progression, that's a caster level of Wiz25/Cle25. With your inane silliness, it'd be Wiz27/Cle27.

Are we talking about the same thing here?
MY EMT progression is 2:1 and 1/3 starting after LVL 24 at the earliest.

No. You assume noone will TAKE the epic progression until level 24. I assume no such thing.

That leaves you, at best, as casting spells at -7/-7 to your CR.

... unless you pick up spellpower for both sides, then you're only -2/-2. And that is BEYOND broken.

So what you're saying is that you are one of those bandwagoners who say "2:1 is wayyyy to powerful" without acknowledging what the MT gives up to get it....

No. Notice how I came up with a progression that is almost as good as 2:1, but not quite. You get 3:4 in each class with my version. That works out to a total of 1.5:1 - while I agree that 2:1 is too much, 1:1 is similarly not enough.

You, on the other hand, are the rolLplaying, power-obsessed, "I must become better than the other players, for that is how you win this game rank lunatic who wants to have EVERYTHING, with no costs, no checks, and no balances.

And you dont. To accomplish that, I'd have to give the EMT 2:1 and a 2/3 EBF progression. And I'd have to up his HD and give him more SP and.....

Nope. Most of the feats, beyond ISC, whichwill be taken at Epic levels ... will be as useful for one caster, as for another. You want AS GOOD benefits as either the straight Wizard or Cleric gets, PLUS benefits towards the other spellcasting class.

And the "plus" bit is wher ebalance goes out the window.

The Epic MT should start with either the Epic Wizard or Epic Cleric progression - 1:1 spellcasting, and 1:3 epic feat progression. Now ... you add in 1:1 spellcasting for the other class. And in return, you must take something away. Something of equal value.

And don't say "the HD get smaller", because compared to the Epic Wizard, they don't.

That something, would be the epic bonus feats. 1:6 would, at that point, be TOO generous, IMO. 1:8 or 1:10 woud be the best I was willing to risk giving to such a progression.

And when you find someone whos trying that you can pull out the munchkin ribbon to tack on them.

** /me tacks selfsame ribbon on Marshall ... not that it wasn't already screamingly obvious! **

The true sign of a good GM, is trying to look FORWARD, see problems before they exist, and remove the problem ahead of time.

Actually, I dont believe you see just how WEAK your version is. Lets demonstrate....We've done the 30lvl analysis above, lets move on to 40...

Fine.

[/quote]
W5/C5/MT10/PaxMT20 = W28/C28(~)
[/quote]
Actually, it comes to exactly Wiz30/Cle30.

and 3 EBF - 12 CL behind and 1.5 EBF per class.

only 10CL behind. And "1.5 EBF per class" ... you don't GET EBF "per class" like that. Period.

SR? You could take those EBF and work on your SP feats, or you could just admit that the entire list of offensive magic for both your spell lists is now off the table...

And/or focus on indirect attacks. Weaken the enemy. Find spells that lower their SR (in fact, the spell Lower Spell Resistance in the draconomicon does exactly this!). Pick up some other classes that offer Spell Power. Buy a slew of Ioun stones.

W7/C7/MT10/MarshallMT16

Artificially and dishonestly set up. There's no reasonnot to launch directly into the Epic progression at 21st level. So, this example should be Wiz5/Cle5/MT10/MarshallMT20 ...

= W33/C33 and 5 EBF

W35/C35, and 6 bonus feats.

Want to go on to 50?

Sure, dig your grave deeper.

[/quote]
PaxMT is now casting at 35/35 with 5 EBF - 15 back on the SR charts with no by-the-book way to overcome more than 1/2 of that and his 2.5 EBF per class is puny compared to the WIZ50 at 10.
[/quote]
Says you. First off, most offensivemagic is Arcane, so for OFFENSE, it's largely the Wizard spells you'r elooking at. So, fine, divert 5 levels (2 out of wizard and 3 out of EpicMT) and pick up Archmage(5) somewhere along the way ... go for Spellpower with every level of Archmage. Heck, be smarter, and divert twoof thsoe archmage levels from CLERIC, so you only lose one level of EpicMT:

Wiz(3)/Cle(3)/MT(10)/Archmage(5)/EpicMT(29).

That casts as a Wiz(35+5)/Cle(34). IOW, it punches through SR as well as a Wiz40/Cle34. Throw on ESP, Tattoo Focus, and a few ioun stones, and you're matching the party's straight wizard for SR penetration.

Meanwhile, my MT is chugging along at 43/43 with 8 EBF.... Not bad, but not overpowering anybody either....

Oh yes it is. And the fact that you don't see it, is a towering monument to your utter lack of -

No. You know what, I'm not going to descend to that level. You just aren't worth it.

 

[Silveras]

since I've only played at lower levels, I don't really understand the discussion between Marshall and Pax
what is the problem with having class levels lower than your character level? isn't that true for all multi-class characters?
what advantage (other than familiar, 2 feats, a few more spells) does a Wiz16have over a Wiz3/Cl3/MT3?
also, is Spell Resistance related to class levels rather than caster level?

The problem is in how many levels behind you are. As a spellcaster multi-classes, s/he loses access to the higher level spells. The save DCs for spells are heavily dependent on the spell's level. If you are 1-2 levels "behind", you are generally 1 spell level "behind", and your spells are 1 factor easier to save against. As you continue to multi-class, you fall more behind; your best spells are easier for the enemy to save against because of this.

Additionally, the potency of the spells is lowered (fewer dice of damage, less rounds of duration, shorter range, fewer targets affected, less potent bonus, etc.).

Further, your efforts to dispel the enemy magic is hindered because it is based on your caster level. Likewise, the enemy's ability to dispel your magic is also increased. This is because it is, essentially, a caster-level-vs.-caster-level contest (there are caps after which it does not get any worse, but the more you multi-class, the longer it takes to reach that cap).

Likewise, getting through spell-resistance is based on caster level, and becomes harder the more you multi-class.

Using feats to boost your spell save DCs helps, but instead of gaining a bonus you are more realistically reducing a liability.

Monster designs and CR ratings are scaled on the expectation of facing a "default" party: 1 Fighter, 1 Cleric, 1 Wizard, and 1 Rogue, all single-classed.

The designers at Wizards have acknowledged that this is a problem; that spellcasters fall too far behind when multi-classing. They had not, at the time of 3.5's release, found a solution they all liked.

The Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, and Arcane Trickster classes are all designed to help reduce this problem - they are PrCs designed to help multi-class casters stay viable. Monte Cook's Book of Hallowed Might offers a slightly different method to tackle the same problem: the Hallowed Mage.

A variant in the Unearthed Arcana book tackles this, as well. In that, the "Magic Effect Rating" (MER) is a new number added to the system. It works like a BAB for spells. The multi-class caster still gives up or delays access to the higher level spells, but the effectiveness of the spells s/he does get is less impacted. The MER gains +1 per pure spellcaster level (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, and PrCs that give +1 Caster Level half or more of the time), +1/2 per "partial" spellcaster (Paladin, Ranger, PrCs that give +1 Caster only occasionally, and classes without spells but a lot of mystic abilities {Monk}), and 1/4 per "nonspellcaster" level (Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues, non-spellcasting PrCs). This number is used in place of the Caster Level for spell effects, dispel checks, and penetrating spell resistance.

While the variant is not a perfect solution, it makes sense to me, and I am trying it out in my current campaign.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

@rich: Thanks for the information.

@Topic:
Sure you are casting at a lower level than a straight classed WIZ or CLR, but what good would it mean if there was no benefit in keeping one class?
Yes, your spells are easier to dispel or to resist, but there are spells against which you have no save against or even SR. -Then there are spells that affect you, so you don't have to bother at all. And compared to a single classed whatever, you have more spells to throw at you, your enemies or whatever.
Where is your problem, having less epic bonus feats is only logical, since both your classes benefit at the same time from them, ever thought about it. And you still get your normal allotment of epic feats, so there should still be some for you around to use.
Since WotC tried to balance things out, you won't find any uber-class where ever you look for it.
I'm currently playin' an female elf cleric3 who will take the next 3 levels as wizard and then MT, that's pretty sure. And I will think things over and over, what I'll do at level 17 when MT has ended, I'm quite unsure, but there is still plenty of time.
I'll see soon enough.