Mystic Theurge

[aurance]

What's with all the hate?

 

[Pax]

It's been erned with willful thick-skulled obstinacy.

 

[Lela]

Obstinance leads to hate? Yoda must have missed that one.

 

[Marshall]

The bard has abilities which are only of use for supporting allies. The cleric has an ability (spellcasting) which can be used for supporting theparty, but could instead be used for other purposes.

Last I checked, ALL of the bards abilities work just as well to buff himself as they do other PC's. Thats the Marshal you seem to be refering to, at most an NPC and something I hate being stuck with as a namesake.

And Rogues get more skill points, and have a similar access to social skils, to boot.

Actually, no. The ROG has more of the DEX based skills, whereas the BARD concentrates on the CHA stuff. Funny how that works.

Hardly. It's illustrative of how well bards can support other characters - primarily by using their inherent, "I don't have these because I chose to" default class abilities.

Focus on the "can" here. Its still not the Bards primary mission in life.

And fail miserably, in any game run by a GM who cares about - or even KNOWS about - game balance. Which is a concept you are obviously not conversant with.

Its becoming rather obvious that you aren't actually reading what your replying to. Take, for example, this quote

He wont succeed, but he can try.

Followed by your diatribe.
So you agree that what I said was correct. Then say that game balance is a concept I am "obviously not conversant with".

So your saying that YOU dont really have any idea what you are Ranting about?

Who says I couldn't afford ESR? If you're an Abjuration specialist, that makes it -5DC lower (and thus cheaper by 45,000gp and 1,800XP). Or you can develop one that requires the aid and assistance of your cohort to cast (donate a 9th level spell for -17DC, which saves another 153,000gp and 6,120xp).

Further demonstrating how broken the system is, but I digress. This ones easy to get around, you just make all your spells so that they effect a 5' diameter area with the targetted like effect.

Anywho, even at 30th level, that one spell with all your addendums still costs about 1/5 your TOTAL resources.

Unlike spells in the PHB and othr sources, Epic Spells are not required to be taken "as is". EACH epic spell, even if iconic, is developed seperately and privately by the epic spellcaster who wishes to know how to CAST it.

Uh huh. By definition, EACH epic spell, not in the book, IS A HOUSE-RULE. If your new epic spell breaks a core rule or PrC, its the SPELL not the PrC thats the problem.

Besides, for the comparison to have ANY worth ... if your Cleric can afford an Epic Dispel, the Theruge can afford a roughly-comparable epic spell of his OWN.

Well, you see here, thats one of the drawbacks of the MT. He has much more that he needs to invest the same pool of resources on. So, No. Its not a given that if the Epic Cleric has EpicDispel that the MT has it, or some other spell, too.

Unless the Theurge made it herself. Then it'd cost her 605,000GP and 12,100XP.

And Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, both of which the CLR is more likely to have, by dint of being the class more likely to use arms and armor and the guy with the EBFs to spend.

Armor cannot be sundered - RTFM.

But shields can, and the ability lists it as a shield ability. Whether thats definitive or not is left to the DM.

Epic Dispel, on the item, will only suppress it for 1d4 round. IF that. And one Wish or Miracle later (admittedly, for an XP cost), *poof* the suppression is over with.

1d4 rounds is still enough to screw you over.

As for MDJ ... First, that is one of the broken-est spells in existance.

No arguments here. Especially at Epic Levels where it can wipe out the GDP of entire planets.

Second, CLERICS are not able to cast MDJ.

Actually, its a Domain spell for Magic or Spell or one of those things.

Third, there's always the (IMO highly probable) chance that the Theurge sprung for the feats leading up to Epic Counterspel - if for no other reason than BECAUSE he has such a high number of spells per day. So the odds of getting an MDJ off successfully is approximately not on your life. God help you if the Theurge picked up a level of Archmage, and got Mastery of Coutnerspelling, 'cause then every turn-able spell you throw, will get countered and reflected.

Lastly, unlike your wee Cleric, the Theurge can cast MDJ, and stript he cleric of as many buffs and items as the cleric hoped to strip the Theurge of. The cleric isn't likely to be counterspelling that, either.

1.) Counterspelling is almost as broken as MDJ, at least after you add in Reactive Counterspell(?)
2.) Auto-Quicken, or just quicken, still negates it.
3.) The CLR will just save. Remember that little discussion about the MT's save DC's being WAyyy behind the curve? And dont try to tell me ANYONE will EVER pick up SF/GSF/ESF Abjuration. Theres what, TWO spells with saves in the entire school?

Um, hello ... is that an echo I hear from the interior of your head? That is an advantage. The cleric can cast Miracle, X number of times per day. The Theurge can match that AND cast both Wish and Limited Wish, besides.

Not really, see now youre overlooking just what ISC gives you. 1+ more Miracle per feat. Its entirely possible that the CLR has as many Miracles as the MT has Miracles and Wishes combined.

Nice try to backpedal, lackwit, but you cited only the Divine Power. BEsides, at 30th level, a 2-point constitution difference would produce a THIRTY point hitpoint difference, not twenty. Your math stinks ALMOST as much as your ability to recognise the importance of game balance.

Are you trying to get this thread closed?
Furthermore, your assertion is incorrect. I mentioned Divine Power AFTER mentioning that the CLR would likely have a higher CON. And, Yes, the 20 number got stuck in my head an I didnt check my figures. But that just makes the situation even worse for the MT now, doesnt it?

Nope. GMW can benefit your allies. Thunderlance can't. GMW can be used to enhance your RANGED attacks (like, with a crossbow). Thunderlance can't.

And if YOU want to make MELEE attacks, which seems to be the intent here, then GMW isnt even a poor cousin to Thunderlance.

Except a quickened spellcast for the round. And if you can't manage to do over 50hp per round with a 30th level cleric, you're doing somethign so unbelievably, stupidly wrong that you shoudl be ashamed of yourself.

vs. a superiorly armored target in melee? You'll average right around there.

Reach weapons of the appropriate size double your reach. An Athach (size Huge) wielding a human Longspear (weapon size medium) does NOT get doubled reach. Again ... RTFM.

Except RTFM because it doesnt say any such thing. If you have natural reach and you weild a reach weapon, your reach doubles.

As for Thunderlance - the spell specifies your EXACT reach. IT does not, itself, have the "reach" quality. You could be a Tiny Grig sorceror, and the Thunderlance will still have a reach of 20'.

If you say so, You're wrong, but its irrelevant to the topic.

With thunderlance, that IS how it works. The damage is the direct (random) result of the spell itself.

The damage is the result of the weapon that is created. The lance is a Huge Longspear. A Huge Longspear does 2d6 damage. Its a funny parsing, but its the same one that prevents the Summon Monster mess.

Waaah, poor baby. If you don't want to lose the option to use direct offensive spells, don't despecialise. Focus on one class or the other to keep up with, or accept that teh consequences of your own choices is to see your spellcasting fall behind far enough that you have to avoid SR-susceptible spells like the plague. I say again, "waaah, poor baby."

I see that you have lost all pretense of adulthood. I will however forge on and point out to you that your "waaah, poor baby." is the same as saying that the MT should never be a viable concept. Which completely undermines your entire stance in this whole debate.

BEcause you can't do that FOREVER. You can do it for only five levels, tops. There's a difference between being able to take 5 levels of archmage, and get +5 spellpower ... and taking fifty or more levels of Mystic Theurge.

No there isnt. At the end of those 50 levels the Archmage is STILL CL+5 and the MT is STILL CL-7. This is where your grasp of what your talking about fades away.

If you truly believe that, you'e even stupider than my already ultra-low opinion of you has been, so far.

You don't fall further and further behind if you're getting +1 caster level per class level, you're holding position. "failing to catch up" != "falling behind".

This is funny, because right here poor Pax starts arguing with himself.
Note here that caster level staying even is ALL he believes needs to happen for the MT to be "failing to catch up". A little farther down and it will finally dawn on him that you need to be spending epic feats to take advantage of that CL. Unfortunately, he still wont admit that the failure to spend those epic feats means your ARE falling behind.

And any multiclass spellcaster could take said feat. Fighter/Wizard? Go for it.

But you would STILL not be getting the same EBF progression.

See?
Now he's got a different problem, he's broken the class by stacking CL to the point that the EMT is casting significantly better than the straight caster, so now he has to go nerf something else.
And comes around to admitting what he denied in the opening of the thread, that the true advancement of epic Spellcasters is in the Epic feats not the CL.

Not when you are the one who brought up the insistance that only COHORTS were support characters, it's not.

Only cohorts have as their PRIMARY role, to support the rest of the party. Even the BARD has jobs where he outshines every other member of the group, just not in combat.

And again ... you brought Epic spells into the mix.

Actually, you are the one who said the MT was broken because he had twice the Epic Spells.

Denied by any sensible GM - for the very reasons James enumerated already.

Its no worse than "rebound every spell targetted against you for free". In fact, its significantly NOT broken. Extra time/money/xp to bypass a specific defense, thats balance. It the "become immune to damage" or "gain astronomical bonuses" for free that you advocate with the "have a cohort to reduce cost" and "cast for a 100 days" that breaks the epic spells system.

No, the whole spell, and all it's effects, are Evocations. Get a clue, will you?

Just to use another spell from the same book as an example of how wrong you are on this, The Greater Fantastic Machine works exactly the same way, except that its an Illusion(shadow). You would have to argue that the machines thrown rocks do Max damage too.

 

[Pax]

The bard has abilities which are only of use for supporting allies. The cleric has an ability (spellcasting) which can be used for supporting theparty, but could instead be used for other purposes.

Last I checked, ALL of the bards abilities work just as well to buff himself as they do other PC's. Thats the Marshal you seem to be refering to, at most an NPC and something I hate being stuck with as a namesake.

Last I checked, the bard's abilities are comparatively next to worthless if used to buff only himself. However, they are very welcome additions to a group, because those abilities grant exponentially-improving benefits as you increase the number of allies present to receive them. One person getting +1 to hit and damage is nowhere NEAR as good as six people receiving +1 to hit and damage.

And Rogues get more skill points, and have a similar access to social skils, to boot.

Actually, no. The ROG has more of the DEX based skills, whereas the BARD concentrates on the CHA stuff. Funny how that works.

Let's see, CHA skills ... Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device.

Of those, only Perform is cross-class for the Rogue.

Non-charisma "social" skills ... I'd include Forgery (make fake papers to get you past the city guards, make fake invitations to teh high-society ball, etc), Knowledge/Local (knowledge is power, after all, and knowing WHO to use the other social skills on makes them all the more effective), Sense Motive (knowing when you're being bluffed, is often as key as bluffing someone yourself). and Speak Language (if you don't have a language in common, it gets MUCH harder to interact socially).

Of those, only Speak Language is cross-class for the Rogue.

Thus, the rogue is EVERY bit as capable of serving as the party's "face man" by dint of skills alone.

So. Your point was ... ?

Focus on the "can" here. Its still not the Bards primary mission in life.

Then what is ... ? Is it "to be the best character in the party, so the other players bow down before me and worship my 733+ gaming skillz" ...? Feh. A Bard's best role, in the "pure adventurer" sense, is to be the guy that makes EVERYONE (yes, himself included) much better while he's around, than theywould be on their own.

IOW, to support himself and his team-mates.

Bards are the ultimate team player. It's what the class was designed for.

Further demonstrating how broken the system is, but I digress. This ones easy to get around, you just make all your spells so that they effect a 5' diameter area with the targetted like effect.

And it's easier than usign Epic Spell Reflection from a spell, to protect yourself form dispel attempts. Epic Seed: WARD ... set for a 10' radius ... made permanent ... and specifically effective against dispel magic, greater dispel, mordenkainen's disjunction, disjoin, and epic dispel magic. Within a 10' globe, centered on you, those spells simply don't exist, nor can they have any effect.

*yawn* And again, you brought the epic spells into the mix, not I.

Uh huh. By definition, EACH epic spell, not in the book, IS A HOUSE-RULE. If your new epic spell breaks a core rule or PrC, its the SPELL not the PrC thats the problem.

Yep. And that's pretty much what the ELH says, too. Funny coincidence, that ... isn't it?

Well, you see here, thats one of the drawbacks of the MT. He has much more that he needs to invest the same pool of resources on. So, No. Its not a given that if the Epic Cleric has EpicDispel that the MT has it, or some other spell, too.

Then, the MT has more levels (after all, you insisted that each epic spell was a level lost), and more money to burn on OTHER items. Like maybe a suit of EPIC ARMOR, crafted by himself, with the Great Reflection property. *YAWN*, again.

And Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, both of which the CLR is more likely to have, by dint of being the class more likely to use arms and armor and the guy with the EBFs to spend.

Not the class more likely to use them, no. The Theurge has the same armor proficiencies as the Cleric - since he, too, is a cleric. And I described to you two sorts of armor with no arcane spell failure percentage. Another would be Bondleaf Wrap (+1 armor, no max dex, no arcane failure, no armor check penalty). +1 Bondleaf Wrap of Great Reflection would only be worth +2 AC, but that's no big deal ... you just wear some Bracers of Armor (+8), and don't care ... the bondleaf is only there to hold the Great Reflection ability, after all.

1.) Counterspelling is almost as broken as MDJ, at least after you add in Reactive Counterspell(?)

No, it's not broken. Significant investment of resources - which for the MT makes perfect sense due to their high number of spells-per-day: they can SPARE the spells to counter 'til the cows come home, and still have plenty left for themselves. (IIRC, the requirements would be Combat Reflexes, Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell, and finally Epic counterspell).

2.) Auto-Quicken, or just quicken, still negates it.

No it doesn't. Counterspelling is not an AoO. With Epic Counterspell, all of the character's own counterspells are free actions, and don't cost them an action later (unlike Reactive Counterspell).

But, I'll say it again: Quickened spells are not immune to counterspelling.

3.) The CLR will just save. Remember that little discussion about the MT's save DC's being WAyyy behind the curve? And dont try to tell me ANYONE will EVER pick up SF/GSF/ESF Abjuration. Theres what, TWO spells with saves in the entire school?

There's no save against a counterspell. And evenif the cleric saves to protect his ITEMS ... spells don't get saving throws against a RAW mordenkainen's disjunction. They just go away, *poof*.

Not really, see now youre overlooking just what ISC gives you. 1+ more Miracle per feat. Its entirely possible that the CLR has as many Miracles as the MT has Miracles and Wishes combined.

... and Limited Wishes, too? ^_^ But regardless, I highly doubt the cleric came loaded with that many miracles, anyway. There're ever so many BETTER things to do with a 10th or 11th level spell slot, than waste it on a miracle. Like all those Quickened (+4 lvls) Heal (6th level base) spells you want the cleric to have.

And if YOU want to make MELEE attacks, which seems to be the intent here, then GMW isnt even a poor cousin to Thunderlance.

Yep, more SPECIALISED spell, more POWERFUL effect. GMW sacrifices power for versatility.

Just.

Like.

The.

Mystic.

Theurge.

Does!

Except RTFM because it doesnt say any such thing. If you have natural reach and you weild a reach weapon, your reach doubles.

Oh, really ... it doesn't ... ? Then, what is THIS (emphasis mine):

Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Would you like some SALT with that crow, Marshall?

The damage is the result of the weapon that is created. The lance is a Huge Longspear. A Huge Longspear does 2d6 damage. Its a funny parsing, but its the same one that prevents the Summon Monster mess.

RTFM time again.

The Thunderlance spell does not create a huge longspear. It creates a line of force between 1 foot and twenty feet in length, which has effects comparable to a (medium) longspear - same damage rating, same threat rating, and extraordinary proficiency with the one, carries over to the other. But it does not create an actual weapon with the actual "Reach" attribute.

I see that you have lost all pretense of adulthood. I will however forge on and point out to you that your "waaah, poor baby." is the same as saying that the MT should never be a viable concept. Which completely undermines your entire stance in this whole debate.

The MT on it's own is a viable concept. Carrying the Mystic Theurge's concept forward, unchanged, into epic levels is not a viable concept.

The Mystic Theurge was never meant to create a 20/20 caster. At best, it creates a 13/17 caster, or a 15/15 caster. One or both of the two classes suffers ... just not as badly as would be the case if you went with only levels of Cleric and Wizard (which would give you a 10/10 caster at best).

Because you can't do that FOREVER. You can do it for only five levels, tops. There's a difference between being able to take 5 levels of archmage, and get +5 spellpower ... and taking fifty or more levels of Mystic Theurge.

No there isnt. At the end of those 50 levels the Archmage is STILL CL+5 and the MT is STILL CL-7. This is where your grasp of what your talking about fades away.

My grasp is quite solid. Your trying to say you shoudl be CL -7 IN TWO CLASES, and whining that neithr class is as good as a straight caster. To which I respond (again), "waaaah, poor baby". Cry me a river.

This is funny, because right here poor Pax starts arguing with himself.
Note here that caster level staying even is ALL he believes needs to happen for the MT to be "failing to catch up". A little farther down and it will finally dawn on him that you need to be spending epic feats to take advantage of that CL. Unfortunately, he still wont admit that the failure to spend those epic feats means your ARE falling behind.

What kind of am idiot are you?

YOU are the one who has been whining about "falling behind", and wanting to "keep up".

I have kept saying that someone who wants to continue to overgeneralise by folllowing the Mystic Theurge route should fall further and further behind in caster level, compared to either possible straight-class option.

To keep up, the character should be forced to specialise once more. Cleric(5)/Specialist Wizard(10)/Mystic Theurge(10)/Archmage(5) - all Archmage levels spent accumulating Spellpower. 30th level character; casts cleric spells as a Cleric(15), and Wizard Spells as a Wizard(30). IOW, lost nothing from his wizard spellcasting except his base 5th level slots (including specialist bonus), and instead of having other Wizard-focussed prestige classes, he casts spells as a 15th level cleric, has more hp thannormal for a wizard, and is proficient with far mroe arms and armor thanmost wizards. He'd probably do well to take levels of Spellsword, maybe even Eldritch Knight, after grabbing the weapon proficiencies he needs with a level of fighter.

Or just go back to pure Wizard levels.

But if he WANTS to keep the Cleric levels going, he's going to pay more and more for the ability to do so.

See?
Now he's got a different problem, he's broken the class by stacking CL to the point that the EMT is casting significantly better than the straight caster, so now he has to go nerf something else.

Are you a complete mor-

No. Now I understand; I've just caught the distinct odor of trollus stupidus. Feh.

And comes around to admitting what he denied in the opening of the thread, that the true advancement of epic Spellcasters is in the Epic feats not the CL.

It's one or the other. I'd give the Epic MT the 1/3 feat progression, if it kept WOTC's "1:1, divie to taste" spellcasting. I'd give it an enhanced rate of spellcasting return, but not the 1/3 feat progression.

What I refuse to do, is what you want: give it both.

Only cohorts have as their PRIMARY role, to support the rest of the party. Even the BARD has jobs where he outshines every other member of the group, just not in combat.

Depends on the other characters, that. A high-charisma rogue who WANTS to be the face-man of the group, but DOESN'T want to play a Bard, can match or exceed the Bard's social skills.

Obviously, sorcerors and wizards outshine the Bard as an arcane spellcaster. Fighters outshine the bard as a ... well ... fighter. What's left is the one place where noone can compete with the bard: support. The bard excels at beign a support-oriented character. He's second- or third-string at nearly everything else, and only ties in the one thing that remains (social skills, excepting only being a polyglot).

Actually, you are the one who said the MT was broken because he had twice the Epic Spells.

Quote me, liar. I never said it woudl have twice the epic spells. I said it has twice the base spells. 4+(domain) from Cleric, and 4+(specialist) from Wizard.

Just to use another spell from the same book as an example of how wrong you are on this, The Greater Fantastic Machine works exactly the same way, except that its an Illusion(shadow). You would have to argue that the machines thrown rocks do Max damage too.

I have to argue no such thing. The machine PICKS UP ROCKS, and throws them. An illusion(shadow) spell that created a crossbow, wouldn't get maximum damage for firing bolts you draw form your own quiver, either.

Now, unless you're willing to argue based on RULES, and not "Marshalls Uberpower Munchkin Fantasy" ... I'm through wastign my time with you. You've obviously either CHOSEN to ignore the truth, or you're simply not intellectually up to comprehending it.

Either way, I have more useful ways to spend my time.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Pax -- After reading this 'enlightening' discussion, I wondered what you'd think about the ways I've been thinking about making the class work.

If I wanted the MT to work the way people seem to use it (a wizard prestige class which 'happens' to grant cleric spellcasting):

+1 caster level to the class of your choice on levels 13, 16, 19,...; +1 arcane/+1 divine caster level at the other levels; epic bonus feats on levels 16, 22, 28,...

This would give a 30th level character cleric casting (20) and wizard casting (27).

Here's how I'd prefer to have it work:
+1 caster level to the lower of your arcane and divine spellcasting levels at levels 11, 16, 21,...; +1 arcane/+1 divine caster level at other levels; epic bonus feats on levels 13, 16, 19,...

This would give a 30th level character cleric casting (23) and wizard casting (25).

I prefer the second method. It progresses at 90% of the speed of a single class and gets all the bonus feats, but has to split evenly -- you're not just a wizard casting cleric spells, you're a good mix of the two. Penetrating SR is a problem, of course, but there are any number of ways to deal with this (even ignoring the ultra-broken lower spell resistance from the DRaconomicon).

What do you think of the balance issues here, based on your experience at the Exodus and in your home campaigns?

 

[James McMurray]

Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Perform (Cha), Use Magic Device (Cha)

Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Perform (Cha), Use Magic Device (Cha).

The bard loses intimidate and gains perform. The rogue actually has more skill-based options for changing someone's attitude than the bard does.

 

[Marshall]

Last I checked, the bard's abilities are comparatively next to worthless if used to buff only himself. However, they are very welcome additions to a group, because those abilities grant exponentially-improving benefits as you increase the number of allies present to receive them. One person getting +1 to hit and damage is nowhere NEAR as good as six people receiving +1 to hit and damage.

That the bards abilities all effect more than he, doesnt change that they affect himself too. And last I checked, the Bard and Cleric are the same in COMBAT, with the CLR having better armor and the Bard having better weapons.

Let's see, CHA skills ... Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device.

Of those, only Perform is cross-class for the Rogue.

Non-charisma "social" skills ... I'd include Forgery (make fake papers to get you past the city guards, make fake invitations to teh high-society ball, etc), Knowledge/Local (knowledge is power, after all, and knowing WHO to use the other social skills on makes them all the more effective), Sense Motive (knowing when you're being bluffed, is often as key as bluffing someone yourself). and Speak Language (if you don't have a language in common, it gets MUCH harder to interact socially).

Of those, only Speak Language is cross-class for the Rogue.

Of course the ROG is also spending skill points on his ROG skills. If he wants to try to get into the Bards game as FaceMan, he can try by giving up being a ROG

Thus, the rogue is EVERY bit as capable of serving as the party's "face man" by dint of skills alone.

So. Your point was ... ?

Never tried it have you?

Then what is ... ? Is it "to be the best character in the party, so the other players bow down before me and worship my 733+ gaming skillz" ...? Feh. A Bard's best role, in the "pure adventurer" sense, is to be the guy that makes EVERYONE (yes, himself included) much better while he's around, than theywould be on their own.

IOW, to support himself and his team-mates.

Bards are the ultimate team player. It's what the class was designed for.

Bards are built to be the Ultimate Social Mover, that they play the support game in combat is secondary to the class.

Thats going over your head too....

And it's easier than usign Epic Spell Reflection from a spell, to protect yourself form dispel attempts. Epic Seed: WARD ... set for a 10' radius ... made permanent ... and specifically effective against dispel magic, greater dispel, mordenkainen's disjunction, disjoin, and epic dispel magic. Within a 10' globe, centered on you, those spells simply don't exist, nor can they have any effect.

Uh, you do know that that has been confirmed to actually DO NOTHING since the ward doesnt protect ITSELF from the spells in question and is just the 1st thing to go down?

*yawn* And again, you brought the epic spells into the mix, not I.

Revisionist history dosent help you make any more sense here, either.

Yep. And that's pretty much what the ELH says, too. Funny coincidence, that ... isn't it?

So, the EMT isnt broken then? Glad you agree with me.

You might want to quit arguing with yourself.

Then, the MT has more levels (after all, you insisted that each epic spell was a level lost), and more money to burn on OTHER items. Like maybe a suit of EPIC ARMOR, crafted by himself, with the Great Reflection property. *YAWN*, again.

You mean like, you know, trying to pay the upkeep on TWO spellcasting classes?
And its a Shield enhancement, same as Animated.

Not the class more likely to use them, no. The Theurge has the same armor proficiencies as the Cleric - since he, too, is a cleric. And I described to you two sorts of armor with no arcane spell failure percentage. Another would be Bondleaf Wrap (+1 armor, no max dex, no arcane failure, no armor check penalty). +1 Bondleaf Wrap of Great Reflection would only be worth +2 AC, but that's no big deal ... you just wear some Bracers of Armor (+8), and don't care ... the bondleaf is only there to hold the Great Reflection ability, after all.

Go ahead, you're just making yourself weaker by spending resources contrary to your forte'.

No, it's not broken. Significant investment of resources - which for the MT makes perfect sense due to their high number of spells-per-day: they can SPARE the spells to counter 'til the cows come home, and still have plenty left for themselves. (IIRC, the requirements would be Combat Reflexes, Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell, and finally Epic counterspell).

Except that what is does once you spend those resources, is nearly untouchable.

No it doesn't. Counterspelling is not an AoO. With Epic Counterspell, all of the character's own counterspells are free actions, and don't cost them an action later (unlike Reactive Counterspell).

Quickened spells cant be counterspelled.

But, I'll say it again: Quickened spells are not immune to counterspelling.

Except where they are...

There's no save against a counterspell. And evenif the cleric saves to protect his ITEMS ... spells don't get saving throws against a RAW mordenkainen's disjunction. They just go away, *poof*.

And you just wasted your round, The CLR then proceeds to pound on you. W/wo the Quickened DP or DF or....

... and Limited Wishes, too? ^_^ But regardless, I highly doubt the cleric came loaded with that many miracles, anyway. There're ever so many BETTER things to do with a 10th or 11th level spell slot, than waste it on a miracle. Like all those Quickened (+4 lvls) Heal (6th level base) spells you want the cleric to have.

Auto Quicken, they're still sixth level spells. And yes I've actually gots the Epic Feats to do all that....

Yep, more SPECIALISED spell, more POWERFUL effect. GMW sacrifices power for versatility.

3-4-5 Times the power? Nope, very broken.

Just.

Like.

The.

Mystic.

Theurge.

Does!

Do you have a point here? I doubt it.

Oh, really ... it doesn't ... ? Then, what is THIS (emphasis mine):



Would you like some SALT with that crow, Marshall?

And a reach weapon of a smaller size, still has the Reach ability. In FACT it might be better to weild the smaller reach weapon, because it wouldnt screw up your natural reach

RTFM time again.

The Thunderlance spell does not create a huge longspear. It creates a line of force between 1 foot and twenty feet in length, which has effects comparable to a (medium) longspear - same damage rating, same threat rating, and extraordinary proficiency with the one, carries over to the other. But it does not create an actual weapon with the actual "Reach" attribute.

Read the spell again, and come back when you can grasp the rules. The spell creates a line of force that acts like a HUGE LONGSPEAR, the spell doesnt do the damage directly. It irrelevant anyway. The spells still broken.

The MT on it's own is a viable concept. Carrying the Mystic Theurge's concept forward, unchanged, into epic levels is not a viable concept.

Why not? You keep up with the mantra, and its still not true.

The Mystic Theurge was never meant to create a 20/20 caster. At best, it creates a 13/17 caster, or a 15/15 caster. One or both of the two classes suffers ... just not as badly as would be the case if you went with only levels of Cleric and Wizard (which would give you a 10/10 caster at best).

Worst case, the mystic theurge creates a 20/20 at 30th level. Try to grasp that.

My grasp is quite solid. Your trying to say you shoudl be CL -7 IN TWO CLASES, and whining that neithr class is as good as a straight caster. To which I respond (again), "waaaah, poor baby". Cry me a river.

And -7 is -7, poor baby. Actually, YOU HAVE SAID THAT +10/+10 IS BALANCED. Try to agree with yourself for once. And dry up the tears, you look stupid.


What kind of am idiot are you?

YOU are the one who has been whining about "falling behind", and wanting to "keep up".

I have kept saying that someone who wants to continue to overgeneralise by folllowing the Mystic Theurge route should fall further and further behind in caster level, compared to either possible straight-class option.

YOU ARE ALREADY BEHIND. IF YOU SPECIALIZE, YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO CATCH UP. IF YOU DONT HAVE THE BONUS FEATS FOR BOTH CLASSES YOU WILL FALL FARTHER BEHIND.

To keep up, the character should be forced to specialise once more. Cleric(5)/Specialist Wizard(10)/Mystic Theurge(10)/Archmage(5) - all Archmage levels spent accumulating Spellpower. 30th level character; casts cleric spells as a Cleric(15), and Wizard Spells as a Wizard(30). IOW, lost nothing from his wizard spellcasting except his base 5th level slots (including specialist bonus), and instead of having other Wizard-focussed prestige classes, he casts spells as a 15th level cleric, has more hp thannormal for a wizard, and is proficient with far mroe arms and armor thanmost wizards. He'd probably do well to take levels of Spellsword, maybe even Eldritch Knight, after grabbing the weapon proficiencies he needs with a level of fighter.

Would you read what you just wrote? You just WASTED the entire Archmage Prestige Class, AND ALL YOU GOT OUT OF IT WAS TO CLOSE THE GAP WITH THE WIZ. God knows what the WIZ was doing at the time, but I KNOW he's making the Theurge look like a 98 pound weakling.

Or just go back to pure Wizard levels.

But if he WANTS to keep the Cleric levels going, he's going to pay more and more for the ability to do so.

Thats the point! Your version gaurentees that even if the Theurge tries to go full WIZ he WILL continue to fall farther and farther behind.

If he wants to keep the CLR levels going, HES GOT TO TAKE FEATS AWAY FROM THE WIZ SIDE to DO it.

Are you a complete mor-

No. Now I understand; I've just caught the distinct odor of trollus stupidus. Feh.

Musta gotta wiff of your pitts there.

It's one or the other. I'd give the Epic MT the 1/3 feat progression, if it kept WOTC's "1:1, divie to taste" spellcasting. I'd give it an enhanced rate of spellcasting return, but not the 1/3 feat progression.

You still weight the CL as being way to valuable, Its NOTHING but upkeep after 20th level.

What I refuse to do, is what you want: give it both.

Even going 1/3, you have to specialize in one or the other OR SPLIT THE ADVANCEMENT.

Quote me, liar. I never said it woudl have twice the epic spells. I said it has twice the base spells. 4+(domain) from Cleric, and 4+(specialist) from Wizard.

Good lord, man, whatever are you smoking? You're TWO epic spellcasters.

I have to argue no such thing. The machine PICKS UP ROCKS, and throws them. An illusion(shadow) spell that created a crossbow, wouldn't get maximum damage for firing bolts you draw form your own quiver, either.

That extends to the slam damage, too.

Now, unless you're willing to argue based on RULES, and not "Marshalls Uberpower Munchkin Fantasy" ... I'm through wastign my time with you. You've obviously either CHOSEN to ignore the truth, or you're simply not intellectually up to comprehending it.

Either way, I have more useful ways to spend my time.

No, offense, OK yes there is. You havent got a clue.

 

[Pax]

Pax -- After reading this 'enlightening' discussion, I wondered what you'd think about the ways I've been thinking about making the class work.

If I wanted the MT to work the way people seem to use it (a wizard prestige class which 'happens' to grant cleric spellcasting):

+1 caster level to the class of your choice on levels 13, 16, 19,...; +1 arcane/+1 divine caster level at the other levels; epic bonus feats on levels 16, 22, 28,...

This would give a 30th level character cleric casting (20) and wizard casting (27).

That's possible. It'd let the character focus the "discretionary" levels on one class or the other. In that event, I think I'd rather see the "+1 to class of choice" happen a wee bit sooner - start it sooner, say at 12th level. For that, a 1/5 feat progression would probably be reasonable.

However, I still prefer my way - pick one class as primary, and one as secondary (solely to figure out the order in which they get improved), and use to the following table:

11 = +1/+1
12 = +1 to primary
13 = +1/+1
14 = +1 to secondary
15 = +1/+1, and a bonus feat
16 = +1 to primary
17 = +1/+1
18 = +1 to secondary
19 = +1/+1
20 = +1 to primary, and a bonus feat
21 = +1/+1
22 = +1 to secondary
23 = +1/+1
24 = +1 to primary
25 = +1/+1, and a bonus feat
26 = +1 to secondary
27 = +1/+1
28 = +1 to primary
29 = +1/+1
30 = +1 to secondary, and a bonus feat

I prefer the second method. It progresses at 90% of the speed of a single class and gets all the bonus feats, but has to split evenly -- you're not just a wizard casting cleric spells, you're a good mix of the two. Penetrating SR is a problem, of course, but there are any number of ways to deal with this (even ignoring the ultra-broken lower spell resistance from the Draconomicon).

What do you think of the balance issues here, based on your experience at the Exodus and in your home campaigns?

Yeah, that seems reasonable, too. ^_^ It's at least an effort to not cripple the Theurge, while also not giving too much. Might need to be tweaked a bit (no caster levels at all every 10th level, maybe). But generally, looks reasonably balanced to me.

...

*sigh* ... I just hate leaving idiots unstomped.

...

Of course the ROG is also spending skill points on his ROG skills. If he wants to try to get into the Bards game as FaceMan, he can try by giving up being a ROG

Rogues get 8 skill points per level. If you don't care to be a sneaky rogue, and just want to focus on locks, traps, and finding both - that leaves 5 skill points per level for "other skills".

Bards get 6 skill points per level ... one of which will be spent on Perform ... leaving them with *drum roll* 5 SKILL POINTS for "other skills". Two of those "other skills" are likely to be Spellcraft and Concentration; the Bard is a second-line spellcaster, after all.

Which means, the Rogue can BE a rogue, and have as many points for the social skills as the bard will. Possibly MORE, even.

Never tried it have you?

As a player? No. As a GM? Absolutely. Right now, in fact.

Revisionist history dosent help you make any more sense here, either.

Listen, you insufferable, suppurating pustule of imbecility, you did bring up epic spells first - you said (here, I'll quote it for you):

Or the Clerics Epic Dispel blows off the Spell Turning and ignores the Rod of Absorbtion and mucks over the MT's day or...or...or...the point is that the CLR is allready ahead of you to start with And gets just as many good buffs. He has a bunch of Miracles too, if he really needs them.

Emphasis, of course, is ming.

Quickened spells cant be counterspelled.

In Marshall's Little Fantasy, you're right, they cannot be countered.

In D&D, however ... quote a rule. Support your (ludicrous) claim.

And you just wasted your round, The CLR then proceeds to pound on you. W/wo the Quickened DP

... counterspelled, never takes effect.

or DF

... counterspelled, never takes effect.

or....

... each one counterspelled, never taking effect.

Auto Quicken, they're still sixth level spells. And yes I've actually gots the Epic Feats to do all that....

Let's see, Character 21, 24, 27, and 30; Cleric 23, 26, and 29. You've cited Epic spells (that's an epic feat), at least two ISC's (two or more epic feats), and now you want two iterations of Autoquicken, eh? You're getting thin on epic feats, friend.

Meanwhile, I've really only comitted to TWO epic feats: Epic Counterspell and Epic Spellcasting. Granted, I've got fewer (the same Characetr 21, 24, 27, and 30; also EpMT 16).

And a reach weapon of a smaller size, still has the Reach ability. In FACT it might be better to weild the smaller reach weapon, because it wouldnt screw up your natural reach

Did you fail to comprehend the rule I cited: Reach only works on appropriately sized weapons.

YOU ARE ALREADY BEHIND. IF YOU SPECIALIZE, YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO CATCH UP.

Not "might"; try "absolutely will".

Cleric(10)/Wizard(5)/Mystic Theurge(10)/Heirophant(5). Casts as a Wizard(15)/Cleric(30), with full spells-per-day as a Cleric.

IF YOU DONT HAVE THE BONUS FEATS FOR BOTH CLASSES YOU WILL FALL FARTHER BEHIND.

So focus your feats on one class. BEsides which, metamagics will work for both classes. Improved Combat Casting, Epic Spellcasting, and Ignore Material Components works for both classes. Etc, etc, etc.

Would you read what you just wrote? You just WASTED the entire Archmage Prestige Class, AND ALL YOU GOT OUT OF IT WAS TO CLOSE THE GAP WITH THE WIZ. God knows what the WIZ was doing at the time, but I KNOW he's making the Theurge look like a 98 pound weakling.

Says you. You head right over to the Exodus, and build a straight, 30th level Wizard or Cleric. I'll build one of the "catch up in one, let the other fall behind" class mixes I've suggested here (though I might trade the extra 5 levels of the 10-level Base Class for 5 levels of another PrC, if inspiration strikes me). While the Exodus is normally only a 25th level arena, this won't be a standard setup anyway.

Clearly declare yourself as "Marshall from ENWorld", and I'll leave approval of your character to the other three GMs; I won't even open the message thread up to read it. One of them may even be willing to handle that through email, and you won't hve to put the sheet online.

One match, using the recently-refocussed rules for character generation at the Exodus. You can choose the map, and even dictate starting positions/areas ON that map (where there are multiple choices, ofc).

And we'll see if the effort of picking up the Archmage or Heirophant class was "WASTED", or not.

Heck, I'll even promise not to come within spitting distance of the Thunderlance spell - and NEITHER of us will have Epic spellcating (we're currently doing away with the whole thing).

IOW ... put your money where your mouth is.

Thats the point! Your version gaurentees that even if the Theurge tries to go full WIZ he WILL continue to fall farther and farther behind.

Are you really that stupid? If you are a Wizard(5)/Cleric(5)/Theurge(10), and you start picking up levels of Wizard and only Wizard ... how do you fall further behind?

Wizard(5)/Cleric(10+)/Theurge(10)/Heirophant(5, all spellpower), will be exactly as good a Cleric spellcaster as ANY cleric of equal total level. Always. And, on top of that, they can cast spells as a 15th level wizard!

Quote me, liar. I never said it would have twice the epic spells. I said it has twice the base spells. 4+(domain) from Cleric, and 4+(specialist) from Wizard.

Good lord, man, whatever are you smoking? You're TWO epic spellcasters.

ROFLMAO ... you absolute idiot. I said "You're TWO epic spellcasters", not "you have twice as many epic spells". The reference was (since your brain appears underpowered to have picked up on this yourself), specifically, to being able to cast as a 22d level cleric and a 23d level wizard. A 22d level cleric is an epic spellcaster. That does not mean he has the feat Epic Spellcasting, nor that he casts epic spells. Only that he is a spellcaster of Epic caliber.

 

[James McMurray]

That the bards abilities all effect more than he, doesnt change that they affect himself too. And last I checked, the Bard and Cleric are the same in COMBAT, with the CLR having better armor and the Bard having better weapons.

But clerics have the all important additons of Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. Even when buffing themselves, bards (without the Memory Smith PrC) are usually much weaker in combat than clerics.

Of course the ROG is also spending skill points on his ROG skills. If he wants to try to get into the Bards game as FaceMan, he can try by giving up being a ROG

The rogue gets 2 more skill points per level than the barrd. IF he puts those points into disguise and Diplomacy he is almost as good as the bard in many situations. If he adds bluff he is better than the bard. If he decides to focus on being a faceman instead of a sneaker, he is better than the bard in all situations that do not require magic.

Go ahead, you're just making yourself weaker by spending resources contrary to your forte'.

I have to disagree here. Getting overlaying items of armor and shield abilities is a highly effective means of increasing your survivability for minimal cost.

No, it's not broken. Significant investment of resources - which for the MT makes perfect sense due to their high number of spells-per-day: they can SPARE the spells to counter 'til the cows come home, and still have plenty left for themselves. (IIRC, the requirements would be Combat Reflexes, Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell, and finally Epic counterspell).

Up until the point where you reach Epic Counterspell you are balanced. You'll give enemy spellcasters fits in a duel, but against non-spellcasters you'll have a lot of unusable resources gone. Once you get the broken Epic Counterspell into the mix, and sprinkle a bit of heighten spell into it, almost no enemy spellcaster will ever be able to cast a spell that you don't want them to cast. At that point you have reached brokenness IMO.

Quickened spells cant be counterspelled.

Can you cite a rule for this? AFAIK there is no such rule.

And you just wasted your round, The CLR then proceeds to pound on you. W/wo the Quickened DP or DF or....

No debuffed cleric will be able to hit a buffed MT of equal level unless the MT wants them to, or the character levels are so high that the attack bonuses are through the stratosphere (i.e. above 100).