Mystic Thurge - Is it broken?

[Number47]

Bonus spells favor the single-class caster. A single class caster can have a far higher primary stat and thus have far higher bonus spells.

EDIT: Not to mention that the single-class caster would thus have higher save DCs. It goes without mention that the single-class caster will have higher damage on their damaging spells, as nearly all are Xd6.

 

[reapersaurus]

I disagree, 47 : bonus spells favor the MT, since attribute bonuses are geometrically more expensive the higher you go. It's much cheaper and easier to pump up 2 stats and get them ~75% as high as you'd ever get them, and get most of the benefit of each, than it is to max out one stat.

Basically, you'd get ~75% of the benefit of bonus spells from 2 classes, instead of getting 100% from one.

150% > 100% Q.E.D.

You're correct about the single caster doing more damage, but that's not my point.
So he has 5% more chance to penetrate SR, and he's got a couple spells about 1 level higher and he does more damage..... how can that possibly compare to having almost full spellcasting in the other prime spell class?

Here's the benefit and here's the drawback.

 

[DonAdam]

the party can always prepare as much as they want for encounters,

It works both ways. They've been in situations where they are defending. They put a lot of effort into preparing, and then the enemy gets to scout and counter-prepare.

The only way to keep them from preparing is constant surprise assaults or constant severe time limits, which gets old after the first or second time.

 

[Derrick Reeves]

There's a little bit of numerical chicanery going on here. Allow me to present some equally valid counterexamples:

Clr3/Wiz3/MT5 vs Clr 11

HP: 3d8+8d4 VS. 11d8 - Theurge behind by about 16hp
BAB: +5 VS. +8/+3 - behind one attack and 3 BAB
Saves: +5/+3/+10 VS. +7/+3/+7 - 2 Fort behind, 3 Will up

Well, the Cleric looks to be a bit ahead here. He'll get more mileage out of his armour proficiency, and the Will Save gap won't be that noticeable given the requisite high Wisdom.

The Theurge does have a familiar, though not a particularly potent one, and gets Scribe Scroll as a freebie; whereas the Cleric has 8 extra levels of turning power and almost certainly gets more use out of their Domain powers.

Spells:

The Mystic Theurge can cast (assuming he's a specialist Wizard):
Cleric (8th): 6 / 4+D / 3+D / 3+D / 2+D
Wizard (8th): 4 / 4+S / 3+S / 3+S / 2+S

A grand total of 42 spells, with 79 spell levels between them (Orisons counted as 0.5 spell levels).

The Cleric can cast:
Cleric (11th): 6 / 5+D / 4+D / 4+D / 3+D / 2+D / 1+D

A grand total of 31 spells, with 77 spell levels between them (Orisons counted as 0.5 spell levels again).

Now, Technik4 would want us to discard Orisons altogether and pay close attention to spells above 3rd level, which would put the comprison at:

MT 32 spells, 74 spell levels, 6 spells above 3rd level.
Cl 25 spells, 74 spell levels, 9 spells above 3rd level.

It would appear that the Cleric can cast 10 to 25 more different spells than the Mystic Theurge, depending on scroll access...

Could it be that the humble Cleric is more versatile than the Mystic Theurge, along with all of his other advantages (hp, no armour dilemma, BAB, high level spells)? Say it ain't so!

Well, let's try looking at something less disturbing... we all know that the Mystic Theurge is at least as good as a Wizard, right? Right?

Clr3/Wiz3/MT9 vs Wiz15

HP: 3d8+12d4 VS. 15d4 (MT ahead by 8 or so)
BAB: +7/+2 VS. +7/+2
Saves: +7/+5/+12 VS. +5/+5/+9 (ahh. clear superiority.)

Yeah, the MT's got a little hp margin and much nicer saves than the wizard. This is going to be a walkover

Now, to be fair, the Wizard's familiar has an extra +6 Natural armour, 6 more Intelligence, Spell Resistance, etc, etc, but "My familiar can beat up your familiar!" isn't worth much in a Mage Duel The Wizard does have 3 bonus feats, mind you, and that's quite important.

Spells:

The Mystic Theurge can cast (again, assuming specialisation):
Cleric (12th) 6 / 5+D / 4+D / 4+D / 3+D / 3+D / 2+D
Wizard (12th) 4 / 4+S / 4+S / 4+S / 3+S / 3+S / 2+S

For a phenomenal total of 63 spells, with 174 spell levels between them. If we pare off the Orisons, that's down to 53, with a "mere" 169 spell levels. I figure, at 15th Character Level, that the important stuff is going to be 5th level and above, and here the Mystic Theurge only has 14 spells to contribute at these levels.

The Wizard can cast (as a specialist):
Wizard (15th): 4 / 4+S / 4+S / 4+S / 4+S / 4+S / 3+S / 2+S / 1+S

That's only 38 spells, and 138 spell levels. Again, cutting away Orisons, down to 136 spell levels, but 14 spells at 5th level and above.

Well. It's hardly conclusive. While the MT may be able to throw around a lot of different spells, they don't have any numerical superiority in the heavy-hitters, and those they do have are lower level. I'm also inclined to believe that I was being somewhat generous in counting 5th level spells, but that's debatable.

So, really, the Mystic Theurge is only showing itself to be a decent alternative to a mono-Wizard. If I'd gone a-raiding Prestige Classes (Loremaster, Archmage... Red Wizard ), the MT would be looking decidedly less competitive.

On the other hand, I specifically chose levels where the MT would be disfavoured on break-points... but reapersaurus chose a level where it'd be favoured on break points. All's fair, I guess.

 

[green slime]

Or we could look at 7th level characters...

Wiz 3/ Clr 3 / MT 1 vs single classed CL 7 or Wiz 7...

 

[Tidus4444]

One thing people don't think about is that the MT is way behind on spell progression. 3 levels behind. So, they've got 3 levels of wizard, and 3 of Cleric and are casting Melf's Acid Arrow. So what? That 6th level sorc can cast fireball 4 or 5 times. He's casting Cure Moderate Wounds. So what? Mr. Cleric can cast cure serious several times per day. He's 3 Wizard/ 3 Cleric/ 3 MT. He's casting fireball, mr. sorc is casting empowered fireballs or cone of colds. mr. Cleric is casting Etheral Jaunt, Flame Strike, and True Seeing. The point I'm making is that, although they are incredibly versatile, they can't spellcast nearly as well as a stright sorc/wizard or straight Cleric. Which is how it should be with multiclassed characters.

 

[Jalkain]

I'm trying to convince my DM to allow the Mystic Thurge prestige class in his campaign. I have some great ideas about how to incorporate it into his home-cooked campaign in terms of background, etc., and why my character would be interested in the class from a role-playing perspective.

I say your DM should let you play the class. Because then you'll have some valid play-testing experience which you can feed back to the boards, and that might go some small way to ending these interminable Mystic Theuge discussions.

 

[Methos]

I say your DM should let you play the class. Because then you'll have some valid play-testing experience which you can feed back to the boards, and that might go some small way to ending these interminable Mystic Theuge discussions.

Perhaps. We briefly touched on it yesterday after our gaming session, along with my campaign idea about why I wanted to have a crack at playing it. Suffice to say, he is going to look into it, but my sense of it, is that he won't be allowing it. Actually, I directed him to this thread primarily so that he could take a look at what some other folks think, as well as doing his own analysis.

So, we'll see........

 

[Nail]

So, Methos, what's yer DM's conclusion?

 

[Darklone]

Guess we shocked his DM.

In his case, it's even worse... even if the MT would be broken (which is debated), Methos additional fighter levels really screw him spellcasterwise, even if he would take some EK levels later.

So thumbs up for Methos MT here after he suffered through some levels with XP penalty due to multiclassing.

Or is there anyone out there who would see a ftr2/cler3/wiz5/MT as overpowered?