Mystic Thurge - Is it broken?

[Psion]

One thing people don't think about is that the MT is way behind on spell progression.

I'm just wondering which critics of the MT aren't taking that into account. I am one of the more vocal critics, and I know that I sure am hell am perfectly aware of that.

3 levels behind. So, they've got 3 levels of wizard, and 3 of Cleric and are casting Melf's Acid Arrow. So what? That 6th level sorc can cast fireball 4 or 5 times. He's casting Cure Moderate Wounds. So what?

At lower levels is not where my concern is with the MT. It's at higher levels when the MT is (say) casting 7th level spells when the single class sorcerer is casting 8th. That is not a significant hit for the additional flexibility that the MT gains at that level.

 

[green slime]

At lower levels is not where my concern is with the MT. It's at higher levels when the MT is (say) casting 7th level spells when the single class sorcerer is casting 8th. That is not a significant hit for the additional flexibility that the MT gains at that level.

Well that is hard to say. Which is why there is some debate. The MT is undeniably flexible at high levels, but he doesn't quite have the same bang.

When the MT gets 7th level spells (earliest 16th character level), he is in the zone where Spell Resistance is definitely a factor. His spell's save DC's and ability to penetrate SR suffers due to his lack of focus.

All of these problems can be worked around, but so can the SC character also work around limitations. A cleric can take the Magic Domain. A wizard carries his staff, makes abundant use of his metamagic/item creation feats, and has thusly more higher level scrolls and abilities available at a cheaper price.

 

[Methos]

So, Methos, what's yer DM's conclusion?

Still waiting......I think he has been a bit busy lately with his work, to the extent that he hasn't had a lot of time to work on the campaign. Or, it is possible as "Darklone" indicated, perhaps he got scared if he has looked at the thread. Ha ha!!

In any event, the backup plan is to simply remain a plain ordinary wizard going forward, if he disallows the MT. Based on many of the responses, from a min/max, pure power perspective, that appears to be more desirable anyway, although my original interest in the MT was for campaign flavor..... Since so many folks think that a Cleric/Fighter/Wizard/MT of say 3/2/5/MT would be hosed anyway, I'm not that kicked up about the MT being denied.

I suppose a Cleric/Fighter/Wizard 1/1/18 would probably be quite a bit more "powerful", although isn't that what this debate is all about anyway? Based on some of the rough builds that I have done, with the additional metamagic feats from the wizard class, the higher wizard caster level, and 2 level 9 spell slots, a 1/1/18 noted above will be more powerful I believe than a 3/2/11/4 Cleric/Fighter/Wizard/MT, that will only have just received a single level 8 spell slot with a Wizard Caster Level of 15.

Cheers

 

[ruleslawyer]

At lower levels is not where my concern is with the MT. It's at higher levels when the MT is (say) casting 7th level spells when the single class sorcerer is casting 8th. That is not a significant hit for the additional flexibility that the MT gains at that level.

Except that the Sor4/Clr5/Myth8 (minimum required level to cast 7th-level spells) is a 17th-level PC, meaning that your single-classed sorc is almost ready to be casting 9th-level spells and has more 8th-level spells per day than the MyTh has 7th. I'll take those advantages over "versatility" any day.

The best place for the MyTh is at Wiz3/Clr3/MyTh10 (7th-level arcane and divine spells), but even then, this build is useless for combat compared to a 16th-level cleric (d8 HD and Persistent divine power? Boo-yah!) and severely lacking in feats, SR penetration, and high-level spells compared to a 16th-level wizard. Keep in mind that the Wiz16 is likely to have more 7th-level spells than the MyTh; given that, the MyTh's larger spell list hardly counterbalances the wizard's bonus feats, higher caster level, and access to 8th-level spells.

Plus, being a MyTh means you can't afford to waste levels on other PrCs before completing your MyTh progression. I'd rather play a wizard/loremaster or sorc/divine oracle than a MyTh any day.

 

[Nail]

Plus, being a MyTh means you can't afford to waste levels on other PrCs before completing your MyTh progression.

Oooooh! "Opportunity Cost" comes into play again.

Methos I hope you get to play a MyTh. We really need some "real world" perspective from a long-term player here. Your input would be (to me at least) invaluable.

Frankly, I'd like to see more player perspectives on the MyTh and the 3.5e Power attack. Both face similar scepticism from Psion.....

 

[Methos]

Methos I hope you get to play a MyTh. We really need some "real world" perspective from a long-term player here. Your input would be (to me at least) invaluable.

Yeah, I'd like to take a shot at it myself to see exactly what it is and isn't capable of, and hopefully to provide some input to both groups of people that are discussing the class. Since I'm not really much of a power gamer, but get more interested in the style of the campaign, and pursuing some of the less obvious, and more subtle aspects of a character, I'd like to think that it could be an interesting character to play.

Mind you, knowing my luck, he'll get killed off by the time I have gotten him up to the point of taking the class......

I nearly got killed off last weeked, first by a cloaker, and then by taking a critical hit from a minotaur for 41 points of damage (staggered to zero). As a party we were got surprised by 2 invisible minotaurs and they closed to melee range before we could soften them with ranged attacks/spells. To make matters worse, we had our movement hampered by a slippery floor, and the party tank wasn't present. That cleric level with a CLW came in handy on that day......

However, what the encounter demonstrated was that if my character is unable to prepare/buff appropriately, he is a poor substitute for a fighter already, and my spells already are not as effective as the party wizard (he is 5th level).

cheers

 

[reapersaurus]

That is not a significant hit for the additional flexibility that the MT gains at that level.

Anybody that doesn't see the problem inherent with this statement (using a Wiz3/Clr3/MT10 example) is purposely blinding themselves to the issue that people see with the MT.
How can any rational player of D&D look at a PC that can cast 7th level spells of the opposing spellcasting class and go "Meh. I'm more concerned about the loss of a couple SR or familiar progression or a few HP or 1 more spell level"

Gimme a break.

The only justification for concern needed about the MT is this:

[insert the spell lists from 1 thru 7 for the Wizard and Cleric]
[compare to the 8th level spell list]

See?
A Straight-classed PC doesn't get ANY of those from the other list.
Someone- please show me which of those 8th level spells is going to be better to have than the entirety of the 1 thru 7 list?

 

[James McMurray]

[insert the spell lists from 1 thru 7 for the Wizard and Cleric]
[compare to the 8th level spell list]

See?
A Straight-classed PC doesn't get ANY of those from the other list.
Someone- please show me which of those 8th level spells is going to be better to have than the entirety of the 1 thru 7 list?

Holy Aura / Cloak of Chaos / etc.
Fire Storm
Greater Spell Immunity

Those three or four (depending on your slignment) are the ultimate in defensive and offensive magic. Fire Storm's area of effect surpasses that of almost every other spell out there. The various auras can both boost your defenses and shut your opponents down. The Spell Immunity is amazing if you have even the slighest clue what you'll be facing.

On the flip side:

Mind Blank
Prismatic Wall
Maze
Moment of Prescience
Mass Charm Monster
Power word Stun
Bigby's Clenched Fist
Horrid Wilting
Polymorphs Any Object

Those spells are all amazing in the proper circumstances. Better than most lower level spells.

Finally, keep in mind that it isn't what you get at W3/C3/MT10, its what you lose on the path there. Early on in your career the other spellcasters in the party will be laughing at you. Later on your offensive capabilities will be decreased because you won't be as capable when it comes to byppassing SR. You gain quite a lot of versatility by taking TM, especially at higher levels. But you lose quite a lot of power, especially at lower levels.

You can roll your eyes and refuse to listen all you want, but that doesn't change a thing.

You sum up by saying a straight classed character doesn't get any of those from the other class's list. That's a bold-faced lie. Most of the spells in the game appear on both the cleric and the wizard spell list. Quite a few of the wizard spells that aren't on the cleric list are available by taking the proper domains if you really want them that badly.

 

[Trainz]

Well, from my POV...

Nobody IMC, after some thought, gave the MT a second glance, so I would hardly call it broken.

Remember: Something is broken if it is too good to pass. Everyone IMC passes the MT. Not broken.

 

[Darklone]

Well, from my POV...

Nobody IMC, after some thought, gave the MT a second glance, so I would hardly call it broken.

Remember: Something is broken if it is too good to pass. Everyone IMC passes the MT. Not broken.

Agreed. One player had to make a replacement char (level6) and I proposed a clr3/wiz3 (or spellsinger) combination to him, since he could have skipped the first 6 lazy levels that way... He asked: "What? I'll be level 7 and can only cast 2nd level spells? I want a REAL spellcaster." He choose singleclass halfling druid (subrace with WIS +2) for the big bang.

I do think that a MT will be really nice to play at high levels with 10 MT class levels... but below level 10, you're only a third class support character who will be laughed at by all the bards in the group.