Mystic Thurge - Is it broken?

[Nail]

... Perhaps I'm overly optimistic.

Not at all.

Some important differences in our situations:

• You'll be playing the PC continuously, while I'll DM the NPC for special appearances. I'm not at all sure what problems a PC MyTh will face.
  
• Your DM hasn't played at high levels. At higher CR, high SR is just par for the course. He doesn't know this yet and fears your magic missile. Dope slap him.
  
• You've got other PCs to play the "strong" roles (meat sheild, high mage, rogue). You're playing support. My NPC attempts were for BBEGs, which is a "strong" role.
  
• As a PC, you're stuck with your decision. As a DM making NPCs, I'm not.
  

Monsters with SR, and Greater Spell Penetration:
SR goes up with CR like this: 11 + CR = creatures SR

At 20th level, your character (Clr 3/Ftr 2/ Wiz 11/ MyTh 4) casts spells as a 15th level wizard or 7th level cleric. With Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, your caster level checks are:

Wizard: d20 + 19
Cleric: d20 + 11

which means you'll fail to affect the "typical" CR 20 critter 55% of the time with your wizard spells, and have virtually no chance with your cleric spells.

Meanwhile, the straight wizard with the same two spell penetration feats (d20 + 24) fails only 30% of the time. That's a significant difference. (Let's leave off the Red Wizard or Archmage, shall we?)

And then there's the difference in save DCs........


......Your DM isn't seeing the forest, as he's fixated on the undergrowth........

 

[Methos]

Not at all.

Some important differences in our situations:

• You'll be playing the PC continuously, while I'll DM the NPC for special appearances. I'm not at all sure what problems a PC MyTh will face.
  
• Your DM hasn't played at high levels. At higher CR, high SR is just par for the course. He doesn't know this yet and fears your magic missile. Dope slap him.
  
• You've got other PCs to play the "strong" roles (meat sheild, high mage, rogue). You're playing support. My NPC attempts were for BBEGs, which is a "strong" role.
  

Monsters with SR, and Greater Spell Penetration:
SR goes up with CR like this: 11 + CR = creatures SR

At 20th level, your character (Clr 3/Ftr 2/ Wiz 11/ MyTh 4) casts spells as a 15th level wizard or 7th level cleric. With Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, your caster level checks are:

Wizard: d20 + 19
Cleric: d20 + 11

which means you'll fail to affect the "typical" CR 20 critter 55% of the time with your wizard spells, and have virtually no chance with your cleric spells.

Meanwhile, the straight wizard with the same two spell penetration feats (d20 + 24) fails only 30% of the time. That's a significant difference.
And then there's the difference in save DCs........


......Your DM isn't seeing the forest, as he's fixated on the undergrowth........

Actually, given the "typical" creature you've noted for SR, I actually feel a bit better about my character's potential high level efficacy. I wasn't expecting him to be an "uber-mage" anyway. As for Red Wizard (we don't play the realms) and the Arch-Mage isn't allowed either.

I certainly didn't expect the divine spells to affect monsters and NPC's anyway. As for the DC's to save? Well, that seems a bit of crapshoot anyway in 3.5. It seems that quite a few save DC's for monsters have gone up, but the ways for a spellcaster to increase them has gone down. Based on your analysis above, I would also think that that our pure wizard needs both SP and GSP in order to be successful at higher levels, otherwise he is just going to be standing around watching his spells bounce off the enemy. At least my character will have some other tools at his disposal to be useful....

 

[Nail]

I wasn't expecting him to be an "uber-mage" anyway. As for Red Wizard (we don't play the realms) and the Arch-Mage isn't allowed either.

Note: Pit Fiends, at CR 20, have SR 32. So 60% chance of failure for your PC. Couple that with saves (your max DC for wizard will be about 27, including stat boost magic items and feats) and you'll affect him with only 16% of the spells you cast.

Yoowch!

BTW, why no Archmage, as per DMG 3.5e? He's really not a game breaker either - the costs are high (high level spell slots, fer gawds sake!). Look, tell yer DM not to sweat this stuff; play it at higher level, then determine if it's uber or not.

 

[Methos]

Note: Pit Fiends, at CR 20, have SR 32. So 60% chance of failure for your PC. Couple that with saves (your max DC for wizard will be about 27, including stat boost magic items and feats) and you'll affect him with only 16% of the spells you cast.

Yoowch!

BTW, why no Archmage, as per DMG 3.5e? He's really not a game breaker either - the costs are high (high level spell slots, fer gawds sake!). Look, tell yer DM not to sweat this stuff; play it at higher level, then determine if it's uber or not.

Yeah, I've looked at saves for some of the high level bad boys, such as dragons, pit fiends, etc. Not good. Having said that even a maxed out 20th level wizard (assuming a starting INT of 18, and going to 23 plus SF, and GSF, and buffing items) will still only have a DC of I think 30? I could be wrong since I'm not a high level expert. Still not great odds of getting past the saves of these critters.......This was one of my beefs awhile back when I started the thread about the reduced effects of the feats Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus.

As far as Archmage, I'm not really sure why it isn't allowed? I've looked at the list he gave us a while back of allowed PrC, and the Archmage wasn't on it. I really didn't ask. Mind you, that was based on 3.0; I haven't asked him about 3.5. I assume that he just thinks some of the abilities might put a character over the top!! Big cautionary note here, since I haven't asked him....., so it could be that he doesn't allow it based on the flavor of his campaign......

Let's just put it this way, he tends to be very conservative about going past the "core rules" even to the extent of allowing "core" prestige classes in the DMG. Rightly or wrongly, that is the style of the campaign. Actually, there is no right or wrong......it's just the campaign style.

 

[Nail]

Yeah, I've looked at saves for some of the high level bad boys, such as dragons, pit fiends, etc. Not good.

I does look ugly, eh? But check this out: many conjuration spells don't allow SR. Heh, heh.

As far as Wiz 20 spell save DCs.....they can be (Int 18 + 5(lvl) +5 (inherent) +6 (enhance) = Int 34) Heightened spells of 9th level, with feats and PrCs......they can be in the range of DC 35. Which, for BBEGs with magic items, means a ~50% of success against the good save(s).

Your PCs trick, of course, will be using spells that have no save and/or SR in clever ways........just what a "Jack-o-All-Trades" should do!

Rightly or wrongly, that is the style of the campaign. Actually, there is no right or wrong......it's just the campaign style.

Works for me. Good luck!

 

[Methos]

As far as Wiz 20 spell save DCs.....they can be (Int 18 + 5(lvl) +5 (inherent) +6 (enhance) = Int 34) Heightened spells of 9th level, with feats and PrCs......they can be in the range of DC 35. Which, for BBEGs with magic items, means a ~50% of success against the good save(s).




Works for me. Good luck!

Thanks for the good wishes.

One other question. Can you stack the inherent bonus (+5, I assume from wishes) with the bonus from a headband of intellect (+6)? I thought that they were both inherent bonuses and thus wouldn't stack?

 

[Nail]

Can you stack the inherent bonus (+5, I assume from wishes) with the bonus from a headband of intellect (+6)?

Bonuses with different names do stack. So, yes, the inherent bonus (from wishes) to Int stacks with the Enhancement bonus. Every wizard should have one of these:

from the SRD 3.5e
Headband of Intellect: This device is a light cord with a small gem set so that it rests upon the forehead of the wearer. The headband adds to the wearer’s Intelligence score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +2, +4, or +6. This enhancement bonus does not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced Intelligence bonus to determine skill points.
Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, fox’s cunning; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6).

 

[Methos]

Bonuses with different names do stack. So, yes, the inherent bonus (from wishes) to Int stacks with the Enhancement bonus. Every wizard should have one of these:

Right. For some reason I thought the Headband provided an inherent bonus. I don't have my books in front of me right now.

Thanks

Cheers

 

[ruleslawyer]

Spellsinger (KoK class) 3/ Cleric 3/ MT.

Casts all spells in full plate mail. Make him an elf, put him on a horse and play knight!

One of the reasons I don't play KoK.

The eyeball beholder familiar can't unleash each and every one of its master's touch spells as an RTA. Reread the description.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Hm... My suggestion is this. Make a deal with the DM. He will allow you to play a MT for a couple of sessions, if he deems the class overpowering, then work to make adjustments.

This has 2 benefits. First, we give the designers the benefit of the doubt and see if the class is really un-balanced. Second, if it is unbalance, you and the DM will have first hand experience of the problem (whatever comes up in game) and can take steps to remedy that problem.

Has anyone tried the class out? I didn't read the entire thread, but first hand accounts are probably most valuable here.