Mystic Thurge - Is it broken?

[Methos]

There have been a couple of first hand accounts, and the consensus so far is that it definitely isn't overpowered. If anything, it may be underpowered.

My sense of it is that this class may be good as a supporting character, but don't expect it to be a leader in any way.

 

[Master of the Game]

I'll admit that my Sorc/Evangelist/MT build wasn't an uber-build. What I wanted was an NPC with a very high charaisma (she has 25 before magical bonuses from cloak (another +4)), who also has clerical levels.

I went evangelist out of laziness honestly. For those who don't know, the evangelist casts clerical spells like a sorc casts wizard spells. It's from the newest Dragon. Evangelists and Sorcs are easy for me to play while I run my game because I don't have to worry about what spells they memorize for the day, and my PCs don't spend all their down-time swaping spells.

This does, however, illustrate the difficult a MT would face if you upped the prereq to 3rd level spells. My build ended up almost too weak, and was only 3 levels down. Upping it to 3rd level spells would put the character down 4 levels from the current standard build.

A 13th level character with no strengths other than casting who could only cast 4th level spells... Really the same as my build, and I can tell you from experience that it was too weak for a commonly played PC.

 

[ForceUser]

There have been a couple of first hand accounts, and the consensus so far is that it definitely isn't overpowered. If anything, it may be underpowered.

My sense of it is that this class may be good as a supporting character, but don't expect it to be a leader in any way.

Leadership isn't based on class, it's based on roleplaying. But I agree, this class will be a very good support character, and decent at handling peripherals such as lackeys.

 

[Methos]

Leadership isn't based on class, it's based on roleplaying. But I agree, this class will be a very good support character, and decent at handling peripherals such as lackeys.

Probably all right that this character would be reduced to being a supporting character anyway, since we do have the Pure Wizard, Pure Fighter (Tank), and Rogue anyway.

What I meant by "leader" was in a sense characters that shine at one particular aspect. e.g. Spellcasting, Combat, etc.

Given the responses, I need to now see if my DM would be interested in reading some of the responses to my question in conjunction with the additional analysis I provided. It would seem to me that the MT wouldn't be over powered as it is written, but we'll have to see what he says.

 

[jayaint]

posted by ruleslawyer...

The eyeball beholder familiar can't unleash each and every one of its master's touch spells as an RTA. Reread the description.

ummm... pg 23-24. Monsters of Faerun. Beholderkin, Eyeball. On page 24 under the heading Eyeball Society there are two paragraphs and then the description of Spellray (Su). Nowhere in that area does it mention ANY limitations as to which spells can be cast through it. So, then, I wonder what point you are making with your statement?

"A sorcerer or wizard can use her eyeball familiar as a vehicle for the delivery of a touch spell... the spell affects the ray's target as if the spellcaster had delivered the touch spell." (ibid.)

...I'm curious?

 

[Petrosian]

Yes. It applies to caster level and spells known, but no other benefits of advancing in the spellcasting class (such as familiar bonuses, turn undead, and the like).

Thanks for the response.

Just one bit, do you have a reference for this answer, like a page i missed or something, because the write up on the ability specifically refers to spells per day several times and never mentions spells known.

 

[Darklone]

about the MT/spellsinger/cleric:

One of the reasons I don't play KoK.

The eyeball beholder familiar can't unleash each and every one of its master's touch spells as an RTA. Reread the description.

It's not as bad as it looks. I ran that NPC in some tests against any PC char of my group and gave him 2 levels more than their average... he still sucked a lot.

Methos: Your char... drop the 2nd fighter level as well as the wizard levels and max out the MT to 10. Less feats, but you'll have enough problems as it is.

 

[Darklone]

Or take Eldritch Knight instead of the 2nd level fighter.

 

[Skinwalker]

Just one bit, do you have a reference for this answer, like a page i missed or something, because the write up on the ability specifically refers to spells per day several times and never mentions spells known.

Here's what I found in the 3.0 Player's Handbook FAQ. Hope it helps.

Prestige Classes
I can’t find any information about how many spells prestige
class spellcasters know. I am going on the presumption that
those that gain bonus spells per day of their existing class
(such as loremaster and spellsword) do not automatically
add additional spells to their spellbook as they gain levels.

They do add spells to their lists. For example, a wizard
/loremaster gains 2 spells for her spellbook when using a
loremaster level to increase spellcasting. A sorcerer/loremaster
would learn more spells as well. Adding spells to your
spellbook or personal repertoire is part of spellcasting.

 

[Derrick Reeves]

I've been playing in a game with a Mystic Theurge. Characters are 13th level at the moment. And, I gotta say, I'm not particularly phased by his presence, as the party Cleric. He can't fight in melee, can't cast Heal, can't cast Heroes' Feast, can't cast Greater Scrying, etc, etc. He can't turn undead to save himself, either, but I'm a bit PrCed away from that, too

To be fair to our Mystic Theurge, he's played in a more tactically-minded fashion than the party wizard, who, for all his incredible cosmic power, fails to get out of harm's way and chews up a lot of my hp, via the wonders of Shield Other. (Which shall henceforth be cast by our party tank - thankyou Imbue with Spell Ability!) The workmanlike attitude may have something to do with my lack of hostility, though in all honesty, it doesn't take away from my perception of my character's party role to have someone else capable of shedding low-level spells to patch people up. It's actually quite liberating to not have to do all the healing - and there's usually a lot to do in one go, as our DM tends to aggregate the combat into less frequent, more demanding fights.

Our wizard player still moans and bitches when we have a couple of non-combat talkie sessions in a row. (There's times when I just want to say, "Back to the Academy, schoolboy, the outdoors is too dangerous for the likes of you." ) But he's never complained of having his limelight stolen by the Mystic Theurge.