Native Outsider

[Tellerian Hawke]

I have dealt with this problem before, in my epic game. Here's the approach I took:

Look at page 42 of the 3.5 PHB. Under the Monk ability, "Perfect Self."

It seems to indicate that the monk becomes a Native Type Outsider, because "...unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type."

But earlier in the description, it says: "She is forevermore treated as an Outsider (an extraplanar creature) rather than as a humanoid for the purpose of spells and magical effects. For instance, Charm Person does not affect her."

This would suggest, at least in my opinion, that the monk is an Outsider for the good and the bad; if the monk is immune to charm, then the monk is also subject to the hedging effects of Protection vs. Good, etc. The monk can also be banished.

How do you banish someone who is native to the Prime Material? Simple. Once you become an Outsider, your home plane is considered to be that of your patron deity. In the case of a monk, that would either be The Outlands (Xan Yae) or the good ol' Prime Material (Zuoken.) [I use Greyhawk, by the way.]

In my mind, the ability to be raised is because of the "humanoid spark" that still lies within the creature's soul.

However, the part of being an Outsider than gives them immunity to charm, is also the part that makes them banishable.

Thus, in my campaign, Thor's Chosen (who was once a mortal man, born on Oerth) who has become an Outsider by rising to Divine Rank 0 now considers Asgard his "home plane."

So, if Thor's Chosen is on the Prime, and someone banishes him, he goes back to Asgard. In fact, he appears in the outer gatehouse of the Rainbow Bridge, where Heimdall stands watch by the gates. Appearing there is round 1.

Then he bows and says, "Sorry to bother you, Heimy," as he begins casting Plane Shift. That's round 2. Then he returns to the Prime (round 3), and uses Teleport w/o Error to go back to the exact spot he was before he was banished (Round 4.)

On round 5, if the person who banished him is still there, he's in trouble

Of course, if your deity lives on the Prime (the way Fharlanghn and Zuoken do) then banishment simply fails when cast upon you while on the Prime.

And of course, for epics, banishment is little more than an inconvenience.

 

[Starfox]

I think you are wrong about the monk being banishable. That is a copy-paste error from 3E, where extraplanar was a late addition to the outsider subtype. It ought to have been changed in Pathfinder (who had extraplanar as a subtype from the start). Just an honest mistake.

 

[Tellerian Hawke]

You may indeed be correct; however, when in doubt, I follow an axiom that I learned in library school (I'm a librarian): When in doubt, catalog the item in-hand.

What that means is, author / publisher intent is dubious and debatable, but there can be no doubt as to what is actually written in the book.

[...]

I just went and looked at the updated 3.5 SRD. They have indeed removed the "extraplanar" language. I did not have a copy of the SRD when I made my original ruling, so let's look at it again.

The SRD says:

Perfect Self: At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

It doesn't give the example of being immune to charm. But it does say, "for the purposes of spells and magical effects," to treat the monk as an outsider.

That's still consistent with my contention: the monk is immune to charm (like an outsider) but also banishable (like an outsider.) You have to take the good with the bad.

Of course, this is only my opinion, but I am basing it on what the rules say. The only way that my ruling deviates from what's written is my contention that becoming an outsider changes your "home plane." I did it that way in my game, because it makes sense; Divine Rank 0 Epics shouldn't be wandering the Prime. I want to keep the emphasis on the outer planes, so I made them say goodbye to their earthly (oerthly? lol) existence.

I suppose that if becoming an outsider doesn't affect your home plane, then yes, a monk who becomes an outsider could not be forced from the Prime, since it WAS their home plane.

But to me, that seems kind of silly. It's like you can't make up your mind. Are you an Outsider, or aren't you? It seems to me that when you become an Outsider, you're leaving the Prime behind, to join the ranks of those FROM THE OUTSIDE, i.e., from planes other than the Prime. I see it as a right of passage, as taking a step up to the next level of being. Staying tied to the Prime seems wishy washy. Isn't it reward enough that you can still be raised by mortal magic?


At any rate, thanks for the heads-up!

 

[Starfox]

The Pathfinder banishment spell http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/banishment says that it banishes extra-planar creatures. It has nothing to do with the outsider type.

The same is true of the 3.5 version of banishment. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/banishment.htm

 

[Tellerian Hawke]

I stand corrected

Please forgive me, I am well-versed in 3.0, but am only just now (within the last few months) studying the 3.5 rules, in preparation for migrating my campaign. [See my profile for details.]

I think I need to go back and revise my Outsider ruling Or better yet, strike it from the House Rules folder altogether. It seems 3.5 has fixed this problem rather nicely.

 

[lunasmeow]

I stand corrected

Please forgive me, I am well-versed in 3.0, but am only just now (within the last few months) studying the 3.5 rules, in preparation for migrating my campaign. [See my profile for details.]

I think I need to go back and revise my Outsider ruling Or better yet, strike it from the House Rules folder altogether. It seems 3.5 has fixed this problem rather nicely.

There is still the question then, of whether or not becoming an Outsider changes your home plane. For Native Outsiders, this obviously does not happen, but what about becoming a real Outsider? This question just came up in my campaign. The DM is going by rules not homebrew, so we need info.

 

[Starfox]

There is still the question then, of whether or not becoming an Outsider changes your home plane. For Native Outsiders, this obviously does not happen, but what about becoming a real Outsider? This question just came up in my campaign. The DM is going by rules not homebrew, so we need info.

For a human to become a native of another plane of existence would be pretty extreme, but it is impossible to say how it would work out in a particular case without knowing the particulars of the case. I cannot think of a single instance of RAW making you change what plane you are native to. Well, perhaps in relation to an outsider (eg a demon) changing alignment and then alignment type. But for a prime plane creature? Not to my knowledge.