Natural attacks and Class attacks confusion

[Cameron]

Something can make sense and still contradict the rules.

It might make sense to someone that a sword used in two hands is a two-handed weapon. But the multiple references in the rules to "a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands" indicate that a one-handed weapon is still a one-handed weapon, whether you're using it in two hands or not. (It can be considered a two-handed weapon if wielded by a smaller creature, but not just by changing how you hold it.)

Despite it perhaps 'making sense', the FAQ answer does not reflect the rules.

-Hyp.

The FAQ clarifies the rules. That is its purpose. There is no point reflecting murky waters. It is alum, not silica

A one-handed weapon wielded in two hands is considered a two-handed weapon for just about everything, especially when calculating things like Power Attack and Strength bonus. The only difference is that you can wield it in one hand if need be. Thus, if it is wielded in two hands, the two terms can be used interchangeably.

 

[Einolf]

Hi,
I'm confused on how newly obtained natural attacks mix with regular attacks (if at all) and I can't find anything about it in the PHB. In Tome of Magic one of the vestiges gives you ram horns which gives you a natural attack. Do you then have to choose between either the horn attack or your regular weapon attack or can you use both as a full attack? If you can use them both as a full attack, what penalties apply? Thanks!

See what you did? I hope you're happy.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A one-handed weapon wielded in two hands is considered a two-handed weapon for just about everything, especially when calculating things like Power Attack and Strength bonus. The only difference is that you can wield it in one hand if need be. Thus, if it is wielded in two hands, the two terms can be used interchangeably.

It's considered a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands for Power Attack, and a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands for Str bonus, both of which are defined. There's no need to consider it a two-handed weapon, since Power Attack states that a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands or a two-handed weapon deals 2-for-1, and the one-handed weapon description notes that when wielded in two hands, such a weapon adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage.

The issue comes with things like Sunder and Disarm, where a two-handed weapon adds a bonus but a one-handed weapon does not; the FAQ's incorrect assertion has the longsword gaining these bonuses when wielded in two hands.

The two terms aren't interchangeable; by declaring them so, the FAQ errs.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

It's considered a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands for Power Attack, and a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands for Str bonus, both of which are defined. There's no need to consider it a two-handed weapon, since Power Attack states that a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands or a two-handed weapon deals 2-for-1, and the one-handed weapon description notes that when wielded in two hands, such a weapon adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage.

The issue comes with things like Sunder and Disarm, where a two-handed weapon adds a bonus but a one-handed weapon does not; the FAQ's incorrect assertion has the longsword gaining these bonuses when wielded in two hands.

The two terms aren't interchangeable; by declaring them so, the FAQ errs.

-Hyp.

I don't see why not from a rules pov and a irl pov. There is no difference between a longsword in two hands and a greatsword when playing with sunder or disarm. It is the two-handed grip that gives you a bonus to either attacks, not an innate property of the weapon. The FAQ is correct.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don't see why not from a rules pov and a irl pov. There is no difference between a longsword in two hands and a greatsword when playing with sunder or disarm. It is the two-handed grip that gives you a bonus to either attacks, not an innate property of the weapon. The FAQ is correct.

From the PHB - a 'rules pov':

1.5x Str bonus to damage:
- two-handed weapon
- one-handed weapon wielded in two hands

2-for-1 Power Attack:
- two-handed weapon
- one-handed weapon wielded in two hands

+4 bonus to Sunder:
- two-handed weapon

+4 bonus to Disarm:
- two-handed weapon

Per the rules, it's not the 'two-handed grip' that gives a bonus to Sunder or Disarm checks. (In 3E, wielding a weapon in two hands gave a +4 bonus when defending against a Disarm attempt; but this is not so in 3.5.) Per the rules, it's 'wielding a two-handed weapon' that gives a bonus to Sunder or Disarm checks. A Medium creature with a Medium longsword is not wielding a two-handed weapon.

The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty.

The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty.

In the table just above this line in the Sunder text, we see that a one-handed blade has 5 hit points, and a two-handed blade has 10. If we are to understand that for the purpose of Sunder, holding a longsword in two hands magically transforms it from a one-handed weapon into a two-handed weapon, then for the purpose of Sunder, do its hit points double when we do so?

-Hyp.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

mostly I agree with you Cameron, but a one handed sword has 5 hit points, while a two handed sword has 10. thats something i cannot imagine changing holding a 1 handed weapon in two hands.

 

[glass]

I don't allow a monk to TWF with his fists - there's no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed, per the class description.

If he wants to make off-hand attacks, he needs to use a weapon to do it.

Also, unarmed strike is explicitly only one weapon. You need two to TWF, so you couldn't TWF with unarmed strike only even without the line in the monk description.


glass.

 

[Deset Gled]

It may be overused, but I gotta say...

 

[Cameron]

From the PHB - a 'rules pov':

1.5x Str bonus to damage:
- two-handed weapon
- one-handed weapon wielded in two hands

2-for-1 Power Attack:
- two-handed weapon
- one-handed weapon wielded in two hands

+4 bonus to Sunder:
- two-handed weapon

+4 bonus to Disarm:
- two-handed weapon

Per the rules, it's not the 'two-handed grip' that gives a bonus to Sunder or Disarm checks. (In 3E, wielding a weapon in two hands gave a +4 bonus when defending against a Disarm attempt; but this is not so in 3.5.) Per the rules, it's 'wielding a two-handed weapon' that gives a bonus to Sunder or Disarm checks. A Medium creature with a Medium longsword is not wielding a two-handed weapon.

The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty.

The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty.

In the table just above this line in the Sunder text, we see that a one-handed blade has 5 hit points, and a two-handed blade has 10. If we are to understand that for the purpose of Sunder, holding a longsword in two hands magically transforms it from a one-handed weapon into a two-handed weapon, then for the purpose of Sunder, do its hit points double when we do so?

-Hyp.

Does your base hp change when you, say, wildshape?

HP is not a good reason to start beating someone over the head with type distinction. As far as I know, the reason for the disarm and sunder bonus is the grip, not the weapon itself. To read that any other was is absurd. The hit point issue is moot because it is a guideline. The actual rule is x hp/inch of thickness. The table given is just a quick and dirty guide for DMs to use.

 

[Cameron]

Also, unarmed strike is explicitly only one weapon. You need two to TWF, so you couldn't TWF with unarmed strike only even without the line in the monk description.


glass.

Umm... I have to disagree. No where does it say that it is only one weapon. The monk entry also says that you can strike with multiple parts of your body, which sort of defeats the claim that it is one weapon.