Natural attacks and Class attacks confusion

[Hypersmurf]

As in not normal Unarmed Strikes. Iterative attacks (with weapons, etc.). I am merely pointing out the the Monk's Unarmed Strikes are considered weapon strikes but you don't need a specific limb for it, so you can use all your natural attacks in conjunction with a full Monk Unarmed Strike attack.

You can do the same with a full Commoner Unarmed Strike attack. A unarmed strike uses your iterative BAB sequence, not the natural weapon primary/secondary mechanic, whether you're a monk or not.

-Hyp.

 

[atomn]

You have a weapon attack of +15/10/5, and have a natural attack. If you wish to use the natural attack as well, it will be at +10 (5 less than your best attack), and so you get 4 attacks total. Multi-attack and Improved multi-attack will decrease that penalty.

Thanks for the help!

In that example, if I used the natural attack, would my weapon attacks drop by 5 as well? So weapon attack +10/5/0 and natural attack +10? Or would the weapon attacks remain at the original bonus (+15/10/5)?

 

[Cameron]

You can do the same with a full Commoner Unarmed Strike attack. A unarmed strike uses your iterative BAB sequence, not the natural weapon primary/secondary mechanic, whether you're a monk or not.

-Hyp.

You don't use elbows and knees with a normal US. Monk specifically says you can attack with your hands full, which means that a normal US might stop you from using some of your natural attacks (e.g., if you punch with a hand, you can't claw with it, but with a Monk, you can hit him with a US and still claw him as that hand is not considered used).


Atomn, your normal weapon attacks are unaffected. Only your natural attacks would be penalised, and you also only add half your Str bonus to the damage to your natural attacks as they are secondary attacks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You don't use elbows and knees with a normal US.

Why not?

PHB p121, Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, headbutt, or other type of attack.
PHB p146, Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage, such as a normal human's unarmed strike (punch, kick, or headbutt).

Medium character, not Medium monk. Normal human, not monk. Nonlethal, not lethal like a monk. A normal human can kick or headbutt as an unarmed strike.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

Why not?

PHB p121, Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, headbutt, or other type of attack.
PHB p146, Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage, such as a normal human's unarmed strike (punch, kick, or headbutt).

Medium character, not Medium monk. Normal human, not monk. Nonlethal, not lethal like a monk. A normal human can kick or headbutt as an unarmed strike.

-Hyp.

Kick stops you from clawing with that leg. Head butt from goring (maybe even biting, depending on DM).

Monks specifically states that you can still attack with US when your hands are full (leaving them free to do other things like claw).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Kick stops you from clawing with that leg. Head butt from goring (maybe even biting, depending on DM).

Monks specifically states that you can still attack with US when your hands are full (leaving them free to do other things like claw).

Right. So if we have a Lizardfolk Com-1, what's to stop him kicking as an unarmed strike, followed by Claw/Claw/Bite as secondary natural attacks? He's clawing with his hands (which weren't used for the unarmed strike), and biting with his head (which wasn't used for the unarmed strike).

Similarly, if we have a human Com-1 with a lantern in one hand and a chicken in the other, he can headbutt instead of punching.

Both commoners will provoke an AoO and deal nonlethal damage as normal for an unarmed strike.

-Hyp.

 

[atomn]

Atomn, your normal weapon attacks are unaffected. Only your natural attacks would be penalised, and you also only add half your Str bonus to the damage to your natural attacks as they are secondary attacks.

Slick, thanks!

 

[Cameron]

Right. So if we have a Lizardfolk Com-1, what's to stop him kicking as an unarmed strike, followed by Claw/Claw/Bite as secondary natural attacks? He's clawing with his hands (which weren't used for the unarmed strike), and biting with his head (which wasn't used for the unarmed strike).

Similarly, if we have a human Com-1 with a lantern in one hand and a chicken in the other, he can headbutt instead of punching.

Both commoners will provoke an AoO and deal nonlethal damage as normal for an unarmed strike.

-Hyp.

I was thinking more along the lines of unarmed strike/unarmed strike/unarmed strike/unarmed strike and unarmed strike/unarmed strike/unarmed strike and claw/claw, claw/claw, rend, bite, wing/wing, wing/wing, rend, tailslap...

 

[Hypersmurf]

I was thinking more along the lines of unarmed strike/unarmed strike/unarmed strike/unarmed strike and unarmed strike/unarmed strike/unarmed strike and claw/claw, claw/claw, rend, bite, wing/wing, wing/wing, rend, tailslap...

Well, the dragon with, say, a +16 BAB can make its four unarmed strikes with one paw, only costing it one of the claw attacks from its natural attack routine.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

Well, the dragon with, say, a +16 BAB can make its four unarmed strikes with one paw, only costing it one of the claw attacks from its natural attack routine.

-Hyp.

That's the point I was trying to make: The Monk (and specifically only the Monk) still has his hands/claws free after his full unarmed strike routine. Remember that he can do his full routine including flurry with his arms full by using knees, elbows, etc.