Natural attacks and Class attacks confusion

[Hypersmurf]

I think you are making a grevious error here: The thing is that a manufactured weapon (your dagger) isn't considered a *natural* attack, and thus cannot be included in a Full Attack action.

Isn't that what off-hand attacks are?

A natural attack can be. That is why you cannot Flurry and then tack on an extra dagger attack. That is like saying you take a full attack with your spiked chain, and then you Quickdraw a dagger and stab the guy as well.

I don't think you are saying that is the case, are you?

Spiked Chain - no, you're out of attacks.

Flurry - I say no, RotG implies no (though it states flat-out that 'flurry cannot be used with natural weaponry').

The FAQ seems to contradict itself:

Exactly how often can a monk attack with a single
manufactured weapon when using the flurry of blows
ability? For example, if I have a +1 alchemical silver dagger,
and I’m allowed three attacks in a flurry, how many of
those attacks can be dagger attacks? What if I have two
daggers? How about with natural weaponry, such as a claw
or bite? For example, if I have a vampire monk, can I
flurry with a slam attack and drain energy multiple times
from one living foe? If natural weaponry doesn’t work with
a flurry, why not?

You can’t use a dagger with a flurry of blows at all. When
you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed
strikes or with special monk weapons. Only six of the latter are
included in the Player’s Handbook (kama, nunchaku,
quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon
(any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special
monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.

and

To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack
whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if
any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s
full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains
only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a
weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it
can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question).

However:

If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.

So, the FAQ first says "You can't use a natural weapon along with a flurry", but then says "You can't use a natural weapon as part of a flurry, but you can use it in addition to the flurry".

Taking the same logic, given that it notes that an off-hand weapon is not available for use in a flurry, it suggests that the off-hand attack is not part of the flurry - you don't use your dagger as an off-hand attack along with the flurry (forbidden by the first answer), but you can use it as an off-hand attack in addition to the flurry.

To me, the RotG answer in this case seems to fit with the PHB better. The FAQ doesn't seem to know what it thinks - you can't use natural weapons with a flurry, but you can use them in addition!?

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

Isn't that what off-hand attacks are?



Spiked Chain - no, you're out of attacks.

Don't you think that is contradictory?

Anyway, you *can* add natural weapon attacks to the end of the Spiked Chain. However, as you correctly said, you can't add the dagger attacks. Looking at that should answer your question as to whether you can tack on natural attack to the *end* of a Flurry, not a part of it.

So, let me put it more simply: You cannot *normally* add additional attacks to a full attack action. However, natural attacks are a special *exception* to this rule.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Don't you think that is contradictory?

No. If you were using a longsword, instead of a spiked chain, I wouldn't have a problem with you adding off-hand dagger attacks. Unless you were wielding your longsword two-handed.

Anyway, you *can* add natural weapon attacks to the end of the Spiked Chain. However, as you correctly said, you can't add the dagger attacks.

If I had the Rapid Shot feat, I couldn't add a dagger thrust to the end of my Spiked Chain sequence, but I could add a dagger throw.

Looking at that should answer your question as to whether you can tack on natural attack to the *end* of a Flurry, not a part of it.

Not at all. If I haven't made an off-hand attack yet, then an off-hand dagger attack is as valid - or as invalid - as a natural attack, added to the end of a Flurry. If I can't make the dagger attack because it isn't an attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, then neither can I make a bite attack - it isn't an attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon. If I can make the bite attack because, despite not being an attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, it's not being made as part of the flurry, the same logic can apply to my off-hand attack with a dagger.

So, let me put it more simply: You cannot *normally* add additional attacks to a full attack action. However, natural attacks are a special *exception* to this rule.

Just like Haste (add an additional attack to a full attack action), Rapid Shot (add an additional ranged attack to a full attack action), or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (add two additional off-hand attacks over and above the single additional off-hand attack anyone wielding a second weapon in his off hand can add, to a full attack action)?

After all, if I have a BAB of +11, and I make three spiked chain attacks at +11/+6/+1, drop my spiked chain and draw a dagger... I can make an attack with the dagger at +11 if I'm Hasted.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

No. If you were using a longsword, instead of a spiked chain, I wouldn't have a problem with you adding off-hand dagger attacks. Unless you were wielding your longsword two-handed.



If I had the Rapid Shot feat, I couldn't add a dagger thrust to the end of my Spiked Chain sequence, but I could add a dagger throw.



Not at all. If I haven't made an off-hand attack yet, then an off-hand dagger attack is as valid - or as invalid - as a natural attack, added to the end of a Flurry. If I can't make the dagger attack because it isn't an attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, then neither can I make a bite attack - it isn't an attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon. If I can make the bite attack because, despite not being an attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, it's not being made as part of the flurry, the same logic can apply to my off-hand attack with a dagger.



Just like Haste (add an additional attack to a full attack action), Rapid Shot (add an additional ranged attack to a full attack action), or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (add two additional off-hand attacks over and above the single additional off-hand attack anyone wielding a second weapon in his off hand can add, to a full attack action)?

After all, if I have a BAB of +11, and I make three spiked chain attacks at +11/+6/+1, drop my spiked chain and draw a dagger... I can make an attack with the dagger at +11 if I'm Hasted.

-Hyp.

I think you are trying to split very fine hairs there.

First, Haste gives you one extra attack on a full attack action, as does rapid shot. It is part of the full attack sequence. You can drop weapons and QD to hit with another weapon because those are all free actions. However, you can also do it with a spiked chain during any time of your spiked chain full attack sequence (drop it, draw a dagger and strike), and you can do it with or without Rapid Shot, Haste, whatever. There is nothing stopping you from doing that.

However, regardless of what you do *during* that full attack sequence, you get to attack with your natural attacks *after* it.

Second, you need to declare TWF before you start rolling your dice. There is that (at least) -2 penalty to factor in. Using it as a comparison is a red herring. Sorry, you just can't compare the two.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think you are trying to split very fine hairs there.

First, Haste gives you one extra attack on a full attack action, as does rapid shot. It is part of the full attack sequence.

However, regardless of what you do *during* that full attack sequence, you get to attack with your natural attacks *after* it.

No, your natural attacks are part of your full attack action, just like all your other attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

No, your natural attacks are part of your full attack action, just like all your other attacks.

-Hyp.

Not according to the way you adjudicated getting extra dagger attacks with a spiked chain...

You either can have one, or the other, but not both. You either allow natural attacks to tag on to the end of a full attack action (and thus on to the end of the spiked chain attacks *and* Flurry), or you don't allow it period (and thus natural attacks are never appended to the end of a full attack action).

Otherwise, it is selective application of rules and is patently unfair.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You either can have one, or the other, but not both. You either allow natural attacks to tag on to the end of a full attack action (and thus on to the end of the spiked chain attacks *and* Flurry), or you don't allow it period (and thus natural attacks are never appended to the end of a full attack action).

They're not 'appended', they're merely part of the full attack action.

If you had a feat - like the Eberron ones for longspear or a longsword - that made your bite attack a special monk weapon, I'd have no problem whatsoever with you using a secondary bite attack while using Flurry of Blows.

I'm not forbidding the bite attack being available when you Flurry; I'm forbidding an attack with something other than an unarmed strike or special monk weapon.

Just like the off-hand dagger - you're wielding a second weapon in your off-hand, so you can make an extra attack with that weapon. Except that because you're flurrying, you can only attack with unarmed strike or special monk weapons, so you can't use that off-hand attack with your dagger that you have available.

I allow secondary natural attacks on any full attack action... except that when using Flurry of Blows, you can only attack with unarmed strike or special monk weapons.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

They're not 'appended', they're merely part of the full attack action.

If you had a feat - like the Eberron ones for longspear or a longsword - that made your bite attack a special monk weapon, I'd have no problem whatsoever with you using a secondary bite attack while using Flurry of Blows.

I'm not forbidding the bite attack being available when you Flurry; I'm forbidding an attack with something other than an unarmed strike or special monk weapon.

Just like the off-hand dagger - you're wielding a second weapon in your off-hand, so you can make an extra attack with that weapon. Except that because you're flurrying, you can only attack with unarmed strike or special monk weapons, so you can't use that off-hand attack with your dagger that you have available.

I allow secondary natural attacks on any full attack action... except that when using Flurry of Blows, you can only attack with unarmed strike or special monk weapons.

-Hyp.

So you are allowing a QD dagger strike at the end of your full attack spiked chain attacks?

 

[Hypersmurf]

So you are allowing a QD dagger strike at the end of your full attack spiked chain attacks?

Not if you've run out of iterative attacks and aren't hasted.

If you swap the spiked chain for a one-handed weapon wielded in one hand, sure.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

Let me clarify my stance on the matter once and for all. I just realised what a total mess this conversation has turned out to be. Too many tangents, and we are jumping from one part to another like crazy.

Let us start with natural attacks: Natural attacks allow you to add them to your normal attack routine at a -5 penalty and be treated as secondary attacks (i.e., half Str bonus to damage), assuming that you have not used that hand/claw in your normal full attack action.

You get your iterative attacks if you do a full round attack action.

TWF allows you to reduce your penalties when you attack with your off-hand. You need to declare that you are attacking with both hands before you start rolling for attacks. This makes it different from natural attacks and thus do not factor into any discussion on natural attacks.

Quickdraw allows you to draw a weapon as a free action. You can Quickdraw as many weapons as you like during your full attack action assuming you drop what you have in hand first. However, this does not give you any *extra* attacks. Thus, you cannot, for example, hit someone with a spiked chain using all your iterative attacks and then QD a dagger and hit him again. This is a significant point.

Haste allows you to attack one more time at your full BAB (+1 for being hasted) as part of your full attack. What you use is up to you. The spell doesn't say that this has to be part of anything.

Rapid Shot is a full round action again, but much like TWF it carries penalties and needs to be declared right at the beginning. It is not a factor to any dicussion on natural attacks, which has no penalties to the primary attacks.

To me, the crux of the matter is whether you allow Quickdraw to give you extra attacks. This is significant because that is what you were trying to compare it to in the beginning (Flurry + dagger in hand). If you don't allow that to happen (and really, you shouldn't), then the there is no comparison at all. You can't say that one gives you an extra attack, but the other don't because they are similar situations. Thus, unless you are trying to TWF, you cannot attack with that dagger in hand as part of your full attack sequence (i.e., when you Flurry). If you are trying to TWF, you are not comparing apples with apples.

Now natural attacks allow you to have extra attacks on top of your full iterative attacks. This is significant because it breaks the rule that you can't have more than your iterative attacks without penalties (e.g., TWF, Rapid Shot, etc.). To me, this means that it allows for whatever you wish to do as your full iterative attacks (TWF, Rapid Shot, Flurry, etc.) and then bang on the natural attacks to the end of that. It is still part of your full attack sequence, but not your full iterative attack sequence. This is something that I seemed to have missed out above. For example, you can TWF and then add your natural attacks on top of that. If you can do that, you can Flurry and add natural attacks on top of that. Both TWF and Flurry are full round actions.

There it is. Like it or not, that is what I think.