Natural attacks and Class attacks confusion

[Hypersmurf]

Now natural attacks allow you to have extra attacks on top of your full iterative attacks. This is significant because it breaks the rule that you can't have more than your iterative attacks without penalties (e.g., TWF, Rapid Shot, etc.).

Like Haste, so Haste is a relevant comparison, right?

So do you allow a Hasted monk to Flurry, and take his additional (Hasted) attack with a dagger?

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

Like Haste, so Haste is a relevant comparison, right?

So do you allow a Hasted monk to Flurry, and take his additional (Hasted) attack with a dagger?

-Hyp.

The spell actually doesn't say, and there is nothing in the rules that cover that. I have always assumed that with Haste you use the same weapon that you were using before, but on further thought, that is usually because you are using your best weapon at the time anyway. After more analysis, I have to say that yes, you can, unless you take the extra Hasted attack to mean that it is added to your iterative attacks rather than a seperate attack altogether: ie., +16/16/11/6 instead of +16/11/6 and then another at +16 of your choice. The rules as written do not forbid it, but neither do they say you can do it. I would tend to be lenient and say you can, but that is just me.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The rules as written do not forbid it, but neither do they say you can do it. I would tend to be lenient and say you can, but that is just me.

The rules as written do say that when using Flurry of Blows, you may only attack with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons, though... which is why I'd forbid both the Hasted dagger attack, and the secondary natural attacks.

Plus off-hand dagger attacks and Rapid Shot dagger attacks, since I don't see why imposing a penalty on all attacks in the round makes them sufficiently 'different' that they should interact with Flurry differently.

On that note, by the way - a first level monk with natural weapons uses Flurry of Blows. His -2 to all attacks in the round will also apply to his secondary natural attacks. Doesn't this, by the same logic you used to suggest that off-hand attacks and Rapid Shot are bound up in the Flurry, mean that the natural attacks (subject to the same penalty as all other attacks in the round) are also bound up in the Flurry?

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

The rules as written do say that when using Flurry of Blows, you may only attack with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons, though... which is why I'd forbid both the Hasted dagger attack, and the secondary natural attacks.

Plus off-hand dagger attacks and Rapid Shot dagger attacks, since I don't see why imposing a penalty on all attacks in the round makes them sufficiently 'different' that they should interact with Flurry differently.

On that note, by the way - a first level monk with natural weapons uses Flurry of Blows. His -2 to all attacks in the round will also apply to his secondary natural attacks. Doesn't this, by the same logic you used to suggest that off-hand attacks and Rapid Shot are bound up in the Flurry, mean that the natural attacks (subject to the same penalty as all other attacks in the round) are also bound up in the Flurry?

-Hyp.

Only if you consider the Hasted attack as part of the Flurry. If you read it my way and say that it is an additional attack (i.e., not part of the Flurry), then the Flurry rules do not apply.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Only if you consider the Hasted attack as part of the Flurry. If you read it my way and say that it is an additional attack (i.e., not part of the Flurry), then the Flurry rules do not apply.

Then why do they apply to Rapid Shot and off-hand attacks? The FAQ even says that the weapon you use for the off-hand attack cannot be part of the Flurry.

Doesn't that mean you should also allow an off-hand dagger attack, since it's in addition to the Flurry, not part of the Flurry?

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

Then why do they apply to Rapid Shot and off-hand attacks? The FAQ even says that the weapon you use for the off-hand attack cannot be part of the Flurry.

Doesn't that mean you should also allow an off-hand dagger attack, since it's in addition to the Flurry, not part of the Flurry?

-Hyp.

Nope. Off-hand attacks are iterative attacks, and so are considered part of your full iterative attack, which is what a Flurry is.

There are two ways to look at Haste:
1) as part of your full iterative, in which case you can't use the dagger.
2) as an additional attack on top of your full iterative, in which case you can.

The first interpretation is not the same as secondary natural attacks, and so does not apply to this discussion.

The second is the same as secondary natural attacks and so does apply, but it doesn't matter to the Flurry example because they are not the same thing anymore.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Nope. Off-hand attacks are iterative attacks...

No, they aren't.

The first is an extra attack granted for wielding a second weapon in your off-hand. The second and third are extra attacks granted for having the ITWF and GTWF feats.

and so are considered part of your full iterative attack, which is what a Flurry is.

What makes you say that? The penalty applies to every attack in the round, for example... so why isn't every attack in the round part of the Flurry?

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

No, they aren't.

The first is an extra attack granted for wielding a second weapon in your off-hand. The second and third are extra attacks granted for having the ITWF and GTWF feats.



What makes you say that? The penalty applies to every attack in the round, for example... so why isn't every attack in the round part of the Flurry?

-Hyp.

The same reason why any further attacks in a round where you charged are not considered charges. You can't, for example, get double damage with a lance on every attack if you have charged that round. The condition/flag of "flurry" or "charge" is taken off once the sequence has been resolved (but the penalties remain...)

 

[Hypersmurf]

The same reason why any further attacks in a round where you charged are not considered charges. You can't, for example, get double damage with a lance on every attack if you have charged that round. The condition/flag of "flurry" or "charge" is taken off once the sequence has been resolved (but the penalties remain...)

So why do you consider off-hand attacks to be within that 'sequence'? They're explicitly defined as 'extra' attacks.

As you just pointed out, penalties can apply whether or not an attack is within a bounded sequence, so the fact that iterative attacks and off-hand attacks both incur penalties doesn't define the off-hand attacks as part of the flurry. And, indeed, the FAQ (as noted earlier) states that the weapon used for an off-hand attack can't be used in the flurry... so attacks with that weapon must (per the FAQ, at least) be outside of that sequence.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

So why do you consider off-hand attacks to be within that 'sequence'? They're explicitly defined as 'extra' attacks.

As you just pointed out, penalties can apply whether or not an attack is within a bounded sequence, so the fact that iterative attacks and off-hand attacks both incur penalties doesn't define the off-hand attacks as part of the flurry. And, indeed, the FAQ (as noted earlier) states that the weapon used for an off-hand attack can't be used in the flurry... so attacks with that weapon must (per the FAQ, at least) be outside of that sequence.

-Hyp.

Hmm... You are trying to change the subject, aren't you?

Anyway, please answer this: Do you now accept that natural attacks can be appended to a Flurry of Blows?

As for TWF, you raised a good point and I will have to mull over it. It does look like you can use a non-Monk weapon in your off-hand when you TWF and Flurry since the Flurry will only apply to your primary attacks. You just can't use a non-Monk weapon as part of the primary attacks if you are Flurrying.