Natural Attacks and the Monk's Class Abilities

[Land Outcast]

where does the free feat come from?
I think that IUS isn't that valuable to give a feat in lieu of it... or maybe just give something fixed, Weapon Focus maybe...

 

[Nyaricus]

where does the free feat come from?
I think that IUS isn't that valuable to give a feat in lieu of it... or maybe just give something fixed, Weapon Focus maybe...

That's just what I'd do, is all. YMMV, JMHO, all that stuff. Point is, that definitions would change under this.

 

[Doctor Bomb]

So, I ask a question: How can these abilities be combined into a cohesive martial arts style usable my Monks that are non-standard races? I would require any such character to take the Multiattack feat. That seems completely reasonable. But I am at a loss as to what to do next. A special feat to allow the use of natural attacks with a Monk’s class abilities? That seems to be too big of a penalty. Most races that have natural attacks already pay a level advancement cost.

That's EXACTLY what I have done -
house rules errata: Add the following lines to the Multiattack Feat:
Special: This feat allows creatures with natural attacks to use their natural attacks in a Monk's Flurry of Blows. The natural attacks count as the creatures base unarmed damage, and improve as the Monk gains levels. For iterative attacks beyond those granted by the creatures natural attack style, use the attack with the highest frequency or lowest damage potential, in that order, before adding remaining attacks.

In the case of a lizardfolk, the claw/claw/bite routine is 2 claws at +2 (1d4+1) and 1 bite at +0 (1d4) (natural). For the lizardfolk monk without Multiattack, the flurry of blows would follow the normal progression of two attacks at +0 (1d6) (lower total damage potential, and with worse chance to hit - why even BECOME a monk?). For the lizardfolk monk with Multiattack, the flurry of blows would progress as follows: damage at 1st level would be 2 claws at +0 (1d8+1) and 1 bite at -2 (1d8) (adding one attack and subtracting 2 from all rolls to hit, ending up with the normal claw/claw/bite routine but at a higher damage potential); damage at 8th level would thus be 2 claws at +7 (2d8+1) and 1 bite at +7 (2d8) followed by another claw at +2 (2d8+1). At 12th level, the lizardfolk monk would be a true terror in close combat, with 3 claws at +11 (3d6+1) and 1 bite at +11 (3d6) followed by a final claw attack at +6 (3d6+1). Finally, at 16th level, the full potential of the lizardfolk monk's flurry of blows is felt. The creature will have 3 claws at +14 (3d8+1), a bite at +14(3d8), another claw at +9 (3d8+1), and a last bite attack at +4 (3d8). That's a boatload of damage. And that's assuming the monk is putting all his level based stat bonuses somewhere other than Strength. Is that balanced over time for one extra feat? Compared to the human monk (who has an extra feat to play with, as he didn't need Multiattack) at +12/+12/+12/+7/+2 (2d8)?

With the level adjustment inherent in most creatures with natural attacks (in this case +2 EL), yes. I think so.

 

[Lorehead]

The latest issue of Dragon had another question for the Sage dealing with the Monk’s Flurry of Blows ability and natural racial attacks (claws, bites, etc.).

In fact, Savage Species says, "Those [monsters] with natural attacks can deal their natural weapon damage with the monk's higher unarmed attack rate, or they can deal the monk's unarmed combat damage, whichever is higher." (106) This refers to the 3.0 monk rules, but you could use it in 3.5 if you were so inclined. (Note one important difference between this rule and allowing natural weapon attacks: natural weapon damage does not by itself trigger any special abilities linked to that natural weapon, for instance improved grab.) Beware of monsters with one great natural weapon that they could otherwise use only once per round.

And once again the Sage explained how only a Monk’s unarmed attacks or special Monk allowed weapons can benefit from the Flurry of Blows ability.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, since the Sages' answers have been contradictory. Page 10 of the 5/24/06 FAQ, in particular, states that a monster can use all of its natural weapons following, but not during, a flurry of blows. This is also how recent examples have worked. I suspect that this is also the most balanced approach.

 

[Asmor]

Funny, I just had this very thing come up with me. A player of mine is playing a Thri-Kreen monk (at my suggestion). Took me a long time to figure out the correct way to do it.

Anyways, I think the problem here is that all these attacks are being obscured by an abstract system which isn't very consistent. A first level fighter isn't just swinging his sword once every 6 seconds, it's just that he only gets to make one attack roll in those 6 seconds. Similarly, a monk isn't just punching once or twice. Hell, he's not even just punching. He's headbutting, he's elbowing, he's kneeing, he's kicking. That's like 9 natural weapons right there! So why, then, does the Thri-kreen get 5 natural attacks, or even the lizardman get 3?

It just doesn't make sense.

In my player's case, I'm gonna stick with the RAW. As a first level monk, his natural attacks are clearly superior to his unarmed attacks, but as his damage and iterative attacks go up that will change. About the only change I'd make it allowing him to use his poison ability (normally reserved for bite attacks) when any of his unarmed attacks hits, because it's not really my place to say whether he just kneed the guy in the stomach or bit him.