Natural Bond

[nobodez]

Yeah, I can see both sides of this issue. I can see the stacking with reductions, and I can see the non-stacking with reductions.

I prefer the former, since it allows a well built druid/BM to have a kick-arse companion (at the expense of two feats (skill focus: handle animal and natural bond), which could have been spent as leadership and natural spell).

 

[mirivor]

It is my opinion that Natural Bond does stack, regardless of character level. Effects like that usually tell you directly when they cannot allow you to exceed your CL, Practiced Spellcaster being a fine example. In our games this feat is applied to the druid's level before selecting her companion. We found direct support for this method in the rules, but I cannot recall what it was.

 

[Thanee]

The counter position to that is "If a brown bear at -6 is balanced with a wolf, then why can the druid use Natural Bond with the bear but not with the wolf?"

Yep, this reading leads to rather stupid results.

The other more mechanical counter position is, that the text speaks of two different effective levels...

1) effective druid level (Ranger and Natural Bond)
2) druid's effective level (the level to determine the animal companion's abilities)

I see this in a strict way and read those as two different effective levels.

Effective druid level is only for non-druids (read: rangers), for druids it's equal to the druid level with no modifiers at all.

When determining the animal companion's abilities, you use the effective druid level as a base, then you deduct the given number from it to determine the druid's effective level for purposes of the animal companion's abilities. Natural Bond has already been applied to the first (and in case of the single class druid had no effect, because the level is already equal to the HD).

That's how I see it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Klaus]

IIRC, the FAQ says to apply it when it's most advantageous to the character.

 

[Thanee]

For Practiced Spellcaster, yes. Similar enough, for sure.

But... if there are two different values that are mentioned there, as I have pointed out above, there is no question about when it is most beneficial, since you apply it to the value it is meant to be applied to, not something else.

Effective druid level is always the same, it isn't lowered by the modifier used to determine the animal companion's ability. That's why (under that reading) Natural Bond has no effect (for a single-classed druid).

Bye
Thanee

 

[mirivor]

Why doesn't it say that it cannot make your total effective level higher than your character level? I do not believe that the writers would have made an error like that. After all, they have that particular phrase written in numerous feats and such.

 

[Klaus]

For Practiced Spellcaster, yes. Similar enough, for sure.

But... if there are two different values that are mentioned there, as I have pointed out above, there is no question about when it is most beneficial, since you apply it to the value it is meant to be applied to, not something else.

Effective druid level is always the same, it isn't lowered by the modifier used to determine the animal companion's ability. That's why (under that reading) Natural Bond has no effect (for a single-classed druid).

Bye
Thanee

And how can a druid's effective level *not* be considered his effective druid level?

If I'm a 4th-level druid and I have a wolf AC, my effective (druid) level is 4. If I have a leopard AC, my effective (druid) level is 1. It's just a matter of not being repetitive (a druid's effective druid level is his druid level after all modifications to the druid's effective druid level are applied for the druid druid druid druid).

I'll even agree with an above poster and remove the character level limitation, since you're having to pay a feat for it.

 

[Thanee]

And how can a druid's effective level *not* be considered his effective druid level?

Easy. Because it's two different things.

One is the actual level in the class (or the effective level for other classes that use ablities from that class).
The other is a number used to look up something on a table and of no use anywhere else.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Why doesn't it say that it cannot make your total effective level higher than your character level?

Because that doesn't make a difference. Whether you look at character level or hit dice, that's pretty much the same thing, anyways.

The problem lies in the first part, not in the second.

If you accept, that the modifier for advanced animal companions affects your effective druid level, then the feat works to counteract this, regardless of what you compare it with, character level or hit dice.

If you, like me, do not accept, that the modifier for advanced animal companions affects your effective druid level, but rather say, that the effective druid level is the input, while some different number (the druid's effective level) is the output, then it doesn't work, again, regardless of whether character level or hit dice are being used.

The problem is the ambiguity between effective druid level and druid's effective level, since they sound so similar, not anything between character level and hit dice.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jack Simth]

Funny that you should mention that - yes, the bear also has armor/barding.

And we have a winner.

Combination of letting Natural Spell work with advanced animal companions, and actually spending spells and money to buff up your animal companion, and you get an Animal Companion which out paces a generic fighter in combat.

Expanding on my work before...

Letting Natural Spell work for them, though is... well...

At 7th, you can have:
A Wolf with 4 bonus HD (bringing it to 6), +4 natural armor, +3 armor bonus for 30 gp with Hide, +2 Str/Dex, some tricks, Evasion and Devotion; giving it an AC of 20, Bite +15 for 1d6+2, and 39 HP (average)

Or a Dire Wolf with 0 bonus HD (6 total), AC 14, +3 armor bonus from Hide armor for 60 GP (AC 17), bite +11 for 1d8+10, and 45 HP.

If you let natural Bond work for such, that Dire Wolf now has 2 bonus HD (8 total), AC 17, Bite +14 for 1d8+12, and 60 HP. At 7th, no buffs, no items. Add Hide barding and you get AC 20 for 60 gp. Animal Companions don't technically have the armor restriction the druid does, but Hide and Studded Leather are about the best for them anyway until you get to Mithral and enchanting. With Mithral, Scale Mail works about best, at 4,200, 8,200, or 16,200, depending on when your DM multiplies. Still, though, boosts that Natural Bonded Dire Wolf to an AC of 21. Enchant it for another +1, and it's up to 22. And you've still spent considerably less on your Animal Companion than the NPC fighter has. And your Dire Wolf is better in almost all ways - moves faster, hits harder, harder to hit, better saves, more HP, Evasion; doesn't get iterative attacks, though. And you have spellcasting to add, say, Greater Magic Fang or Barkskin to up him even more. At 7th, should a class feature + some cash + one feat really outshine a dedicated fighter, even if he's an NPC? Shucks, the Druid has Ride and Handle Animal as class skills - the Druid can cast all his buffs on himself and share them with the Animal Companion, free of charge.

So yes, he could easily seem to out-pace the Fighter for some levels if you permit Natural Bond to cover the Level Adjustment for the stronger animal companions, or if you put equipment on your animal companion.