Natural Bond

[mirivor]

I think that if the druid wants to burn his wealth on his animal companion then he should be allowed.

If you compare an animal with a fighter whose level is equal to the animal's hd and then give them equal amounts of money to spend, the fighter would be superior.

Above all else, it falls to the DM to see to it that the animal companion remains just that, an animal, which possesses the intelligence of an animal and the instincts of an animal. Even with the druid's constant commands he is still an animal. Not to mention he is needed. The druid has relatively poor weapon selection, mediocre armor, and mediocre spells compared to his full-casting counterparts. He needs his animal companion to shore up these weaknesses a little.

 

[Klaus]

And we have a winner.

Combination of letting Natural Spell work with advanced animal companions, and actually spending spells and money to buff up your animal companion, and you get an Animal Companion which out paces a generic fighter in combat.

Expanding on my work before...

Letting Natural Spell work for them, though is... well...

At 7th, you can have:
A Wolf with 4 bonus HD (bringing it to 6), +4 natural armor, +3 armor bonus for 30 gp with Hide, +2 Str/Dex, some tricks, Evasion and Devotion; giving it an AC of 20, Bite +15 for 1d6+2, and 39 HP (average)

Or a Dire Wolf with 0 bonus HD (6 total), AC 14, +3 armor bonus from Hide armor for 60 GP (AC 17), bite +11 for 1d8+10, and 45 HP.

If you let natural Bond work for such, that Dire Wolf now has 2 bonus HD (8 total), AC 17, Bite +14 for 1d8+12, and 60 HP. At 7th, no buffs, no items. Add Hide barding and you get AC 20 for 60 gp. Animal Companions don't technically have the armor restriction the druid does, but Hide and Studded Leather are about the best for them anyway until you get to Mithral and enchanting. With Mithral, Scale Mail works about best, at 4,200, 8,200, or 16,200, depending on when your DM multiplies. Still, though, boosts that Natural Bonded Dire Wolf to an AC of 21. Enchant it for another +1, and it's up to 22. And you've still spent considerably less on your Animal Companion than the NPC fighter has. And your Dire Wolf is better in almost all ways - moves faster, hits harder, harder to hit, better saves, more HP, Evasion; doesn't get iterative attacks, though. And you have spellcasting to add, say, Greater Magic Fang or Barkskin to up him even more. At 7th, should a class feature + some cash + one feat really outshine a dedicated fighter, even if he's an NPC? Shucks, the Druid has Ride and Handle Animal as class skills - the Druid can cast all his buffs on himself and share them with the Animal Companion, free of charge.

So yes, he could easily seem to out-pace the Fighter for some levels if you permit Natural Bond to cover the Level Adjustment for the stronger animal companions, or if you put equipment on your animal companion.

How is that Wolf getting +15 to hit? IIRC, it's +4 BAB, +3 from Str 17 (raised from 15) and +1 from Weapon Focus (bite), for a grand total of +8.

 

[Jack Simth]

How is that Wolf getting +15 to hit? IIRC, it's +4 BAB, +3 from Str 17 (raised from 15) and +1 from Weapon Focus (bite), for a grand total of +8.

Probably a typo on my part. Let's see.... 4 extra HD give +3 BAB over the normal wolf's, +2 Str/Dex gives +1 attack to put it at +8. Yep. My bad.

Mirivor:
Training for combat riding is DC 20. A Druid gets a +4 bonus on Handle Animal checks on his Animal Companion. Okay, Taking 10, at 1st, he needs max ranks in Handle Animal and an extra +2 from somewhere - Charisma 14, maybe - to make the DC. So the Halfling Druid-1 could have his wolf/riding dog trained for Combat Riding fairly readily. And he gets a bonus trick - which is used for, oh, overcoming the limitation that animals don't attack strange things ("Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks."). Having an animal do one of the tricks it's been trained in is DC 10 - if you can take 10 to make DC 20, you'll make that on a roll of 1. For a Druid, it's a free action to handle his animal companion, so, when the Druid's turn rolls around, he's got a medium fighter on his side, that basically always obeys, and can do all the basic fighter-1 things, and has 13 HP, AC 16, and Bite +3 for 1d6+3, plus trip. And the Druid gets a move of 40 out of it (combat riding, after all). With a dex of 10, the Druid can stay in his saddle and guide with knees on a roll of 1 (4 ranks in Ride), and fight with his mount on a roll of 6 (exactly 75% of the time). Druid can improve the Dog's AC by 3 points by spending 50 GP on Studded Leather Barding. Pricy, at 1st. More likely to go with Leather barding for +2 at 20 gp, for an AC of 18 or 19 for 20 or 50 gp from the druid, respectively. Saves +5/+5/+1

The DMG NPC Fighter-1 has AC 18, 12 HP, bastard sword +5 for 1d10+2, saves +4/+1/+1. The Druid's Riding Dog in leather barding is effectively an NPC Fighter-1 slightly specialized for tripping. And the NPC fighter spent 200 gp on splint mail, 20 gp on a heavy steel shield, and 335 gp on a masterwork bastard sword (total 555 gp, ignoring the bow and arrows). The Druid spent 20-50 gp.

Skip ahead a bit to 4th.
NPC Fighter-4 has AC 21, bastard sword +9 for 1d10+5, 34 HP, saves +6/+2/+2.

Druid now has 7 ranks in Handle Animal; with his animal companion bonus, he gets a +11, + charisma mod to Handle Animal. With a Charisma of 8, he makes the DC 20 Combat Riding training by taking 10 (same bonus trick as before). He picks up, oh, a Dire Bat, which normally has AC 20, 30 HP, Bite +5 for 1d8+4, saves +7/+10/+6. Now suppose we let natural bond work with level-adjusted animal companions. The Dire Bat picks up 4th level Druid Animal Companion Bonuses. +2 HD, +2 Natural Armor, +1 Str/Dex, Evasion. Now the Dire Bat has Bite +7 for 1d8+6, AC 22, 45 HP, saves +8/+11/+7. The Fighter averages a little more damage, and slightly better to-hit, but the Dire Bat has better AC, more HP, better saves, and Evasion. Oh, and flies. And has 40 foot blindsense. With a Charisma of 8, the Druid can get the Bat to do any of it's tricks as a free action on a roll of 1. And the Dire Bat isn't a combat optimized animal companion. Spend 40 gp to give the Dire Bat leather barding, and it's got AC 24. Oh, and that still without any buff spells like Magic Fang, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Cat's Grace, or Barkskin that the Druid-4 can share.

My suggestion? Don't let natural bond mitigate the adjustment for higher-level animal companions.... unless you're short a tank in the party.

 

[Thorindale]

Thanks for all the input. Very good analysis.

And to slightly highjack my own thread: Once you receive an Animal companion, do you roll stats or use the stats from the MM? I cannot find any rules for this, but I think it boils down to what the DM says.

 

[Klaus]

Thanks for all the input. Very good analysis.

And to slightly highjack my own thread: Once you receive an Animal companion, do you roll stats or use the stats from the MM? I cannot find any rules for this, but I think it boils down to what the DM says.

An animal companion is always an average representative of the species. It always use the MM stats.

 

[Hypersmurf]

An animal companion is always an average representative of the species. It always use the MM stats.

If WotC ever calls me up and asks me to write Complete Furball (A Guide for Mounts, Companions, and Familiars)*, one thing that will be in there will be expanded rules for combining the Leadership feat with class features that provide animal associates.

If your Animal Companion were also your Cohort, I'd allow them to have the standard array instead of 10s and 11s.

-Hyp.

* though I'm not holding my breath

 

[Jack Simth]

Just for grins, I statted up a Druid-4 with a Dire Bat, and checked the differences:

Halfling, 4th-Level Druid
Small Humanoid (Halfling)
Hit Dice: 4d8+4 (25 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 15 ft. (3 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+2 Dex, +1 Size, +4 Armor, +3 Shield) Touch 13, Flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-3
Attack: Club +2 (1d4-2) or +3 Thrown Club (1d4-2)
Full Attack: Club +2 (1d4-2) or +3 Thrown Club (1d4-2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Halfling traits
Special Qualities: Halfling traits, Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +8 (+10 vs. Fear) (+10/+8/+12 vs. Spell-like abilities of Fey)
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 10
Skills: Concentration +8, Handle Animal +7*, Knoweledge(Nature)+9, Ride +11, Spot +10, Survival+10
Feats: Combat Riding, (Natural Bond / Craft Wondrous Item)
Environment: Warm plains
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: +1 Small heavy Wooden Shield, +1 Small Hide Armor, two wands of Cure Light Wounds, Spell Components Pouch, Club, Holly and Mistletoe, Traveler's Outfit, 219 gp
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0
* +4 Circumstance when dealing with his animal companion, below
Spells: Casts divine spells as a 1st level Druid.
Typical Spells Prepared (5/4/3; save DC 13 + spell level)
0: Light*2, Resistence, Detect Magic, Cure Minor Wounds
1: Magic Fang*2, Cure Light Wounds*2
2: Reduce Animal, Barkskin, Bear's Endurance

DIRE BAT [If Natural Bond works]
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+12 (30 hp) [6d8+18 (45 hp)]
Initiative: +6
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 23[25] (-1 size, +6 Dex, +5[+7] natural, +3 Armor), touch 15, flat-footed 17[19]
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+10 [+4/+12]
Attack: Bite +5[+7] melee (1d8+4) [(1d8+6)]
Full Attack: Bite +5[+7] melee (1d8+4) [(1d8+6)]
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Blindsense 40 ft., Link, Share Spells [Evasion]
Saves: Fort +7[+8], Ref +10[+11], Will +6[+7]
Abilities: Str 17[18], Dex 22[23], Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +4, Listen +12*[+14*], Move Silently +11, Spot +8*
Tricks: Combat Riding (attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel); Attack Upgrade [Fetch] as Druid Bonus Trick
Feats: Alertness, Stealthy [Flyby Attack]
Environment: Temperate deserts
Organization: Solitary or colony (5-8)
Challenge Rating: Included in Druid's
Treasure: +1 Large Leather Barding, Exotic Military Riding Saddle, Bit and Bridle, Saddlebags
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-12 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -
A dire bat has a wingspan of 15 feet and weighs about 200 pounds.
Combat
Dire bats swoop down upon unsuspecting prey from above.
Blindsense (Ex): A dire bat uses echolocation to pinpoint creatures within 40 feet. Opponents still have total concealment against the bat unless it can actually see them.
Skills: Dire bats have a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. These bonuses are lost if its blindsense is negated.

Any arguments on that being the specific effects of letting Natural Bond function on level-adjusted animal companions?

Oh, and if you actually want to play that character, feel free. The Druid is based on the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). The Druid has about 30 lbs of Equipment (maximum medium load). Either way, the Dire Bat is at a light load while normal sized and carrying the halfling, medium if reduced (I think - for a Reduced Dire Bat, would you use the weight of things made for a Medium Dire Bat, or 1/8th the weight of things made for a Large Dire Bat? It makes a bit of a difference; potentially, the Dire Bat remains at a light load when Reduced..... if Natural Bond is permitted to function for it, anyway).

 

[mirivor]

I agree with the two assessments from both posters, but let me point out a few things.

1) I think that in order for a companion to attack a certain creature then the druid must be right there to gesture at it without the potential for error. An animal is still an animal. This effectively treats that druid and his companion as one entity for tactical purposes, including area of effect and ability to surround and cut off. Not the end of the world, but a drawback non the less.

2) An animal will, in my opinion, disobey the druid if the animal sees the druid is under duress from one other than the indicated target. An animal has personality. We have probably all seen evidence of just how often we as a race underestimate their instincts for the preservation of themselves and their packmates (speaking more so of dogs, I suppose, as the wolf seems to be a common companion).

3) Giving the fighter NPC wealth is not a fair move. The posts here have talked of the druid spending his own wealth on the companion, which means for a proper comparison the fighter must get PC wealth. In addition, I think that to be fair you must build the fighter like the animal. Animals are balls of fur and claws. The fighter, in order to be compared, should be a ball of flesh and blades. Not only that, but just look at all of the advantages the fighter has tactically. He can communicate, he can make judgement calls and sacrifices, he has ranged weapons, etc.

I do not mean to say that the companion is not really cool in melee combat. Many times they even outdamage the fighters. But they do not disarm, bullrush, talk, know when to retreat, wield magical weapons to hit incorporeal, etc. They are also squishy aside from their high hit point totals for the very things mentioned above. In addition, I am not so sure about the barding thing. Maybe a dog raised by humans or whatever race. I don't think that a bear or bat or even a wolf would accept barding. They are animals after all. But that is just my opinion, of course.

Overall, I allow Natural Bond to stack and I have not seen an overpowered companion yet.

 

[Squire James]

I agree about the barding. Barding is for tame animals, and druid companions are not tame (at least not at first). Awaken one later on, and barding becomes an option (as is the possibility that the former animal leaves on some quest or another).

 

[Jack Simth]

I agree with the two assessments from both posters, but let me point out a few things.

1) I think that in order for a companion to attack a certain creature then the druid must be right there to gesture at it without the potential for error. An animal is still an animal. This effectively treats that druid and his companion as one entity for tactical purposes, including area of effect and ability to surround and cut off. Not the end of the world, but a drawback non the less.

2) An animal will, in my opinion, disobey the druid if the animal sees the druid is under duress from one other than the indicated target. An animal has personality. We have probably all seen evidence of just how often we as a race underestimate their instincts for the preservation of themselves and their packmates (speaking more so of dogs, I suppose, as the wolf seems to be a common companion).

Shrug. So the Druid's got what's effectively a bodyguard of equal level. That's one of the big things casters need anyway. Helps that the bodyguard is basically utterly loyal (if not very bright). Was also planning on a mounted druid (which, while forbidden in 3.0, isn't in 3.5....).

3) Giving the fighter NPC wealth is not a fair move. The posts here have talked of the druid spending his own wealth on the companion, which means for a proper comparison the fighter must get PC wealth. In addition, I think that to be fair you must build the fighter like the animal. Animals are balls of fur and claws. The fighter, in order to be compared, should be a ball of flesh and blades. Not only that, but just look at all of the advantages the fighter has tactically. He can communicate, he can make judgement calls and sacrifices, he has ranged weapons, etc.

At 4th, the difference between NPC equipment and PC equipment is about 2k. NPC -> PC, the fighter gets maybe 1 point of AC and a point of saves, from a +1 Cloak of Resistence and adding +1 to his shield or armor. Unless he's optimizing, of course, which isn't something I was doing for the Druid or animal companion in the examples. The Druid thinks for the companion - in character, even; it's what Handle Animal covers.

I do not mean to say that the companion is not really cool in melee combat. Many times they even outdamage the fighters. But they do not disarm, bullrush, talk, know when to retreat, wield magical weapons to hit incorporeal, etc. They are also squishy aside from their high hit point totals for the very things mentioned above. In addition, I am not so sure about the barding thing. Maybe a dog raised by humans or whatever race. I don't think that a bear or bat or even a wolf would accept barding. They are animals after all. But that is just my opinion, of course.

The Druid took six weeks and trained him specifically for that kind of thing. Take a look at the Handle Animal skill - Combat Riding gives attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel (in addition to letting you mount it). Attack lets you point out a foe, and explicitly lets you specify a particular creature. Come specifies that it comes to you, even if it normally wouldn't (because, say, there's a fire involved). Defend lets you tell him to go guard someone else (perhaps the glass cannon or the Batman). Down tells him to stop attacking (normally, they don't do so until it "must flee" or it's opponent is "defeated"). Guard lets the druid have someone else take a watch. Heel convinces the AC to follow when it normally wouldn't (through flames, maybe). As, for the Druid working with his Animal Companion, it's a free action to give an order, "Down" and "Come" covers retreat rather well. Magic Fang and it's Greater counterpart will let the critter hurt Incorporeals (50% of the time, anyway). Druid's Bonus Trick, even for an effective Druid-1, can be used to upgrade the attack so it will even go after golems, undead, and other things it normally wouldn't. You'd be amazed what you can accomplish with simple commands in sequence. Most computer processors have under 200 of them. Okay, so Fido won't be running Diablo IV anytime soon, but there's a surprising amount of tactics you can manage. Oh, and Wolves have standard tactics - for Flanking and Tripping - listed in their MM entries. No Bull Rush, disarm, et cetera, sure (well... you might be able to make Fetch work for that....) but you can do a surprising amount. Especially when using one as a mount, so that you have explicit control of it's movement.

Overall, I allow Natural Bond to stack and I have not seen an overpowered companion yet.

I doubt you've had anyone push that aspect.... or you've had characters who push everything else, too.