NDA Early access to 3.5 rules for d20 Print Publishers

[d20Dwarf]

Good work on those, I really liked the layout work you did. Getting Christopher Shy really helps out too, doesn't it? I'm going to have to pick me up a few of those PDFs.

 

[philreed]

Thanks

Christopher and I have worked on many projects in the past. It's not that difficult for me to get art from him.

 

[jmucchiello]

There is a bit of intellectual dishonesty going around this thread, but I won't call anyone specifically out on it.

The fact is with *very very very few* exceptions, the PDFs on the market today do not even come close to matching the production values of even the worst printed products. Many pdfs have little or no art (Joe's Book of Enchantment), the art is blurry or grainy, elements aren't aligned, and a host of other issues. Almost universally PDFs have these problems that would KILL a printed book. Ever picked up a book with no art? Look how print products get savaged by this site's reviewers when they have not enough art, bad art, or a bad word count/price ratio. Do PDFs take this flak? No, because most of the reviewers are aware of the differences and take them into account when they are reviewing products. It's the same reason that many WotC books get lower reviews than clearly inferior d20 products....there is a different standard.

And actually, some of the staff reviewers are well known for lowering their review rating for bad art in both print and pdf. If you look hard enough, you will find PDF reviews that get slammed for bad text/page ratios just like print works. But following is the artwork commentary on my book from this review site:

Enworld review of Joe's Book of Enchantment by JoeGKushner:
Lay out is great. The person responsible for this has made a really great looking document that’s easy on the eyes. The only sore spot, it isn’t a lot of white space, it isn’t a disorganized look, is lack of graphics. Virtually no graphics appear in the book, making it a bit bland looking, something that is overcome a bit by the use of two colors but not fully.

Gamewyrd review of Joe's Book of Enchantment
That’s a long list of things you’ll find in Joe’s Book of Enchantment. The list of things you might expect to find but wont is a bit shorter. There are no illustrations anywhere in the supplement.... Joe’s Book isn’t quite the sea of text since there natural breaks but it would be easier to read and kinder on the eye as a whole if they were there.

Enworld review by Krug
I would have preferred more illustrations, but that’s a minor point.

Three out of the four reviews on Enworld seem to care. And that was my first entry into any form of publishing. Try the artwork in the Character Customization preview below and tell me it is bad. It may be grainy but only because I made the PDF at 100 dpi to keep it small: it's a preview. And there will be borders once I can find borders I like.

Back to d20Dwarf
I would very much like PDFs to become a viable market, but so far there is really only one well known exception to the rule that PDFs do not a real business make. Just the data cited in this thread shows that it is nigh impossible to build a business selling PDFs online. Until this happens, I think businesses (WotC) are well within the bounds of good practice not to deal with what amount to fan productions. Good fan productions in some cases, but fan productions nonetheless.

Well, as long as people have the opinion that PDF productions are just fan productions, of course they cannot support "real" business. Your attitude is why PDF publishing is not as viable as print publishing. People on the message boards constantly say "If it wasn't worth printing, it must be no good." WotC's policy reinforces that perception. That's why we are upset.

I'd like to see someone back up the conceit shown in this thread by actually producing a viable product in PDF format. Like I said, I'm rooting for PDFs, but the quality has got to be there! If the quality was there and someone figured out how to market them and utilize the unique platform, then I think the market could become reasonable and grow.

Now I know I'm the only person who's been throwing around the "my stuff is better" stuff and I recognize that although you mentioned my product by name, you aren't calling me out. The problem is perception. If you can't take me seriously, you don't buy my stuff. If WotC doesn't take me seriously, how can I get the average fan to do so?

There are a lot of RPGers who do not even buy the rulebooks to the games they play. Virtual books have made no real strides into popular culture. Until there's digital paper (promised for 10 years now), it will always be an uphill battle.

 

[d20Dwarf]

Joe,

I like PDFs, and I do in fact buy them. I'm looking forward to reading Book of Enchantments when I get a little down time.

In any case, I think I can safely bow out of the discussion now. I have a better understanding of both sides of the issue now, and my opinions have been aired.

EDIT: That harpy bard is disturbing.

 

[jmucchiello]

EDIT: That harpy bard is disturbing.

I'll forward that on to the artist.

 

[malladin]

Okay, this argument seems to be settling down into a bit of a 'which is more risky; print or pdf?' discussion, and I'd like to bring itback to an earlier point that seems to have been lost in the melee.

No matter what the arguments about relative financial risk, I'd like to readdress the issue that this seems to be a case of ill-advised quality control on the part of WotC.

I know that there is an awful lot of absolute detritus, to put it midly, periforating the pdf market, but there are a few occassional gems that, in terms of game content at the very least, are superior to a lot of print products that are out there. As an example, I'd like to challenge people to compare our Paladin book with the recently released Quintessential Paladin and tell me that the content of our book would not hapily replace about 50% of its content. Thats probably being a bit boastful, and maybe I'm wrong, but at the very least you'll see how well FH: Paladin compares to a high quality print product (Q.Paladin is great ). I'd also like to see a peice of artwork superior to Phil Morris' excellent interior cover for Unearthed Adventurers (but thats just me plugging Phil, cos he's a mate, rather than the book, understand )

I get the impression that WotC are ignoring the pdf market because they feel that pdf products are damaging the overall quality of D20. Personally I think they could do a lot, in general, to support some of the better pdf publishers (even if that ends up not being us) in order to boost the overall quality and recognition of d20 pdfs.

I'll let you get back to your fiscal deliberations...

Cheerio,

Ben

PS Sigil - Kid on the way? Congrats. My no. 2 is due on the 21st (which means I had to edit Unearthed Adventurers myself )

 

[Monte At Home]

I wasn't going to participate in this thread because I hate how it is unneccesarily driving a wedge between pdf and print publishers that didn't seem to be there before.

The fact is with *very very very few* exceptions, the PDFs on the market today do not even come close to matching the production values of even the worst printed products.

This gross generalization is indeed false. Not because so many PDFs are great, but because the production values of so many printed products are... well, not good (I was going to use a different adjective, but Eric's Grandmother and all that). I'd say the print has perhaps a higher ratio of quality production values versus [crude adjective meaning not good] than pdf does, but not a lot higher.

I'd like to see someone back up the conceit shown in this thread by actually producing a viable product in PDF format.

Done.

Like I said, I'm rooting for PDFs, but the quality has got to be there! If the quality was there and someone figured out how to market them and utilize the unique platform, then I think the market could become reasonable and grow.

If you were to actually examine the pdf market (which didn't even really exist a year and a half ago), you'd see that it has, in fact, grown considerably--much faster than I ever imagined--and continues to grow.

 

[d20Dwarf]

I wasn't going to participate in this thread because I hate how it is unneccesarily driving a wedge between pdf and print publishers that didn't seem to be there before.

Apparently the resentment was there all along, it just took a catalyst to spark it.

This gross generalization is indeed false. Not because so many PDFs are great, but because the production values of so many printed products are... well, not good (I was going to use a different adjective, but Eric's Grandmother and all that). I'd say the print has perhaps a higher ratio of quality production values versus [crude adjective meaning not good] than pdf does, but not a lot higher..

I think Joe and Philip are putting out high quality PDFs. I think some bad early experiences soured me, but it looks like there are more quality PDFs out there than I initially gave credit for. Even by people that don't have friends in the industry.

Done.

I'd like to see your sales numbers in the other thread and how they match up to others. Then I think we'll understand better the relevance of your experience compared to everyone else (TM Ambient ).

If you were to actually examine the pdf market (which didn't even really exist a year and a half ago), you'd see that it has, in fact, grown considerably--much faster than I ever imagined--and continues to grow.

Yes, it's grown from zero. Excellent.

I never said it hasn't grown, but has it matured into even a reasonable competitor to print products AT THIS TIME? No. That's what this discussion is about. (It really boils down to a misguided notion of egalitarianism, but that's another topic altogether).

 

[rpghost]

The fact is with *very very very few* exceptions, the PDFs on the market today do not even come close to matching the production values of even the worst printed products. Many pdfs have little or no art (Joe's Book of Enchantment), the art is blurry or grainy, elements aren't aligned, and a host of other issues. Almost universally PDFs have these problems that would KILL a printed book.

That's just hogwash. Take it from someone who has viewed nearly all the 300 products on RPGNow (as we have to review basic functionality of the PDF), the number of "bad layout" or "no art" products are by far the minority. For sure not "universally" as you state. Heck, I can name 50 or more products that ARE also print products. RPGObjects, Pinnacle, Mongoose, Malhavoc, Bastion Press, Fiery Dragon, WEG, etc... these ARE print companies doing PDF. Then there are some great layout people like Brett from PI Games, and many more great looking products. So please don't make such general negative comments when you don't know what you're talking about.

Sure there are more then we'd like to admit but in most cases are done on purpose or told to the customer up front as to why.

James

 

[rpghost]

I'd like to see your sales numbers in the other thread and how they match up to others. Then I think we'll understand better the relevance of your experience compared to everyone else (TM Ambient ).

Is this sarcasm? Monte has sold 10 times that of any other publisher. Or was that your point? Which case I have no clue what you're talking about.

Monte is always releasing both in PDF and Print- probably the same source file is even used. So his PDFs ARE Print quality.

I see no reason publishers of PDF shouldn't do both print and PDF. Monte agrees with that. The point is the PDF publishers are usually just more cash-poor or unsure of their abilities. Thus, they are PDF publishers. Many of which move on to doing both later.

James