Necromancer Games NOT going with current GSL.

[Mistwell]

I am not shocked in the least. People keep repeating that Clark was 4e's most vocal supporter...and I just never saw it that way because I never viewed him as a GSL supporter. Clark has always expressed serious concerns and doubts about the license and licensing concepts in this field. He's been very vocal about that. I've read some of his concerns, and as a fellow attorney specializing in contracts I simply don't agree with his views...but hey, it's his company, and his right to have a differing view, particularly since he is the one that would take the risk.

But I always thought there was no chance Clark would accept the GSL right off the bat. I'd have been far more shocked of Clark suddenly agreeing to the GSL than I would have been if Green Ronin had accepted the GSL, for example (and I am far more disappointed that GR did not, though I do understand).

I strongly suspect Clark will get his "clarification" and then go ahead with it...because I think his worries...come from an overly risk-adverse viewpoint and make conservative assumptions that are not the intent of the GSL. I think WOTC will be relatively fine offering that "clarification" to alleviate those worries.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Its obvious that beyond Core book sales, 3PPs did alot of things way better than they did and took a good share of the market.

I don't think WotC's bottom line was hurting because of the 3PP products. There was a clear preference for "official" D&D content in the market. I do agree that most of the meaningful innovation came from the 3PPs. I think that the GSL is a reaction to the overall shrinking of the RPG market in general. Not having access to WotC's numbers, I can only guess that they saw 3rd edition sales drop down to numbers not seen since TSR was going out of business and they decided that they wanted all of the business this time around. Even if 3PPs have (at most) 10% of the market, that's a 10% boost in sales that they can show to Hasbro, thereby keeping the brand alive and jobs intact.

The problem, as was pointed out above, is that many gamers can see blatant corporate greed for what it is and are willing to rebel against it. If Necromancer adopts the GSL, they will effectively stop being a publisher the minute WotC decides to yank the license. They might be generous and keep it in place until 5th edition, or they could pull it in the middle of the edition, but either way, it's bad news for anyone else who wants to make D&D compatible stuff.

What's more is that with the OGL, they managed to convince the gaming public that having a standardized set of rules for all genres and settings is a good thing. People bought in and competing systems lost popularity. The bottom line is that if the publishers and the customers drop support for open gaming now, OGL games will disappear from the market and successful non-WotC gaming products will be mostly a thing of the past - at least until someone either comes up with a new system that is vastly superior, versatile, and somehow manages to capture a good chunk of the market, or Hasbro pulls the plug on D&D and the third party publishers become the primary source for gaming. I don't like that scenario.

If you're a 4th edition fan, enjoy the game and play the game. What I urge you to do though, is to stop judging those who choose not to adopt it and join in a game or two of either 3.5 or Pathfinder when convenient. In other words, assume that the worst case scenario is possible and hedge your bets a bit.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

IMO compared to 3.5e 4e is to D&D what the Wii is to the Xbox 360 or the PS3. Its the perfect game for casual gamers. Easy to pick up and learn, few options (eve settings are only getting one major book), and optimized balance that allows for everyone to be awesome all the time. None of these things are bad necessarily, but the design philosophy is fundamentally different.

Without 3pp support 4e will be what 3.5 would have been without 3pp support...an endless stream of splats filled with cool toys, feats, items, etc. that will undoubltedly introduce power creep and balance into 4e's perfectly balanced system...however without the creativity and innovation of alternate systems and settings like...

Arcana Unearthed
Iron Heroes
True20
Midnight
Conan D20

...and others who brought mechanical and creative innovation to 3.5e. With the GSL as it is 4e will never have the richness of 3.5e.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Sunderstone]

I think that the GSL is a reaction to the overall shrinking of the RPG market in general. Not having access to WotC's numbers, I can only guess that they saw 3rd edition sales drop down to numbers not seen since TSR was going out of business and they decided that they wanted all of the business this time around. Even if 3PPs have (at most) 10% of the market, that's a 10% boost in sales that they can show to Hasbro, thereby keeping the brand alive and jobs intact.

That is exactly the point I was trying to convey, and I am aware that many folks still wanted "official" material. I was one of the guys that was slow/late in adopting 3PP material. Necro was the first, then came Paizo, GR, and Goodman. 3PPs gradually got more of my dollars than WotC did.

The problem, as was pointed out above, is that many gamers can see blatant corporate greed for what it is and are willing to rebel against it. If Necromancer adopts the GSL, they will effectively stop being a publisher the minute WotC decides to yank the license. They might be generous and keep it in place until 5th edition, or they could pull it in the middle of the edition, but either way, it's bad news for anyone else who wants to make D&D compatible stuff.

What's more is that with the OGL, they managed to convince the gaming public that having a standardized set of rules for all genres and settings is a good thing. People bought in and competing systems lost popularity. The bottom line is that if the publishers and the customers drop support for open gaming now, OGL games will disappear from the market and successful non-WotC gaming products will be mostly a thing of the past - at least until someone either comes up with a new system that is vastly superior, versatile, and somehow manages to capture a good chunk of the market, or Hasbro pulls the plug on D&D and the third party publishers become the primary source for gaming. I don't like that scenario.

Excellent points.

 

[Andre]

When none of the major 3pp have signed on, and several are producing 4e products NOT under the GSL, I'm pretty sure the "outright rebellion" is a go.

This is the part I don't understand. So long as 3PP are using some form of the OGL/D20/GSL, WOTC has some control over what they do. As soon as 3PP start using copyright or other legal justifications for publishing compatible material, all WOTC's only options are reduced to legal action.

As the saying goes (cleaned up for Eric's grandma): "Better to have my enemies inside the tent spitting out, than outside spitting in".

 

[DaveMage]

When 5e comes around even the GSL will be gone.

Dude - don't worry!

I'm one powerball win away from buying D&D!

When that happens and I oversee the making of 5E, I'll open it up again.

It's under control.

 

[JVisgaitis]

If you're a 4th edition fan, enjoy the game and play the game. What I urge you to do though, is to stop judging those who choose not to adopt it and join in a game or two of either 3.5 or Pathfinder when convenient. In other words, assume that the worst case scenario is possible and hedge your bets a bit.

Indeed. Do play the game you like and don't judge the other side. This is tiptoeing into the realm of 3e vs 4e, but I think it's safe to say that respect what other people like and want to play. Regardless if its 1e, 3e, or 4e.

 

[Mistwell]

Dude - don't worry!

I'm one powerball win away from buying D&D!

When that happens and I oversee the making of 5E, I'll open it up again.

It's under control.

Oh, well, I am so relieved now. Thank you for letting us know...I was worried for a moment

 

[Alzrius]

Indeed. Do play the game you like and don't judge the other side. This is tiptoeing into the realm of 3e vs 4e, but I think it's safe to say that respect what other people like and want to play. Regardless if its 1e, 3e, or 4e.

Why? Why does 2E get no love?

That said, I'm curious about what "clarifications" Clark wants, and what difference they could make in regards to his decision not to use the GSL. Some of the legalese is rather opaque, I agree, but I'd think he'd want some changes, and not just clarifications, before he'd sign the License.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

If Necromancer adopts the GSL, they will effectively stop being a publisher the minute WotC decides to yank the license. They might be generous and keep it in place until 5th edition, or they could pull it in the middle of the edition, but either way, it's bad news for anyone else who wants to make D&D compatible stuff.

...In other words, assume that the worst case scenario is possible and hedge your bets a bit.

QFT

Hope for the best while preparing for the worst is the onty way to go. If I were in the business of simply creating adventures, like Goodman Games, the GSL wouldn't make me nervous in the least. I would create fun adventures that I could afford to abandon once the GSL was revoked. However, IMO adventures aren't the same thing as recognizable IP such as settings which can serve as springboards for entire lines (adventures, setting books, monster books, etc.) and putting an entire line onto the GSL is risky to say the least.



Wyrmshadows