Necromancer Optional Rule?

[frankthedm]

Too bad the Dread Necromancer class is only 8 levels long.

You making a joke about jumping out of the class for a PRC? Dread necro is a 20 level base class that is a long walk to no level adjustment lichdom.

 

[iceifur]

Dread necro is a 20 level base class that is a long walk to no level adjustment lichdom.

Be that as it may, IME, it's pretty much a theoretical reward. Considering that many groups never actually make it to level 20 (players leave, characters die, real life intrudes, and etc.), level 8 is a good point to jump ship and board a prestige class. Take your newly gained Undead Mastery ability, find an accommodating (undead-related) PrC, and reap the rewards while the reaping's good. Otherwise, the "long walk to no level adjustment lichdom" might become the "endless road of less-than-stellar abilities and ultimate frustration."

I guess I'm saying that I'd rather have cool and useful (and fun) abilities now than a great ability (that I may never get to enjoy) later.

 

[Thondor]

Clerics are supposed to be better at undead than wizards. You can always reflavor it for your game, bu tin normal games, Clerics are basically the masters of life and death, as part of their religious calling. Of course they're better at the death part than wizards.

As for the balance thing, Turn Undead would be fine at full power if you sacrifice the familiar, and maybe the bonus spell slots.

I understand the theory, but I'm not sure I've ever really agreed with it. An arcane spell caster who focuses on Necromancy - the study of the undead should be as capable as a Cleric.

Still I reconsider my proposal, mostly in that we must consider having the Necromancer give up a 3rd school, in order to get the benefits I originally suggested and rebuke undead 3 levels below a cleric, and keep the familiar.

Familiars are mostly flavour, and Necromancy is a pretty weak school at least in Core. I like flavour.

 

[sirwmholder]

I understand the theory, but I'm not sure I've ever really agreed with it. An arcane spell caster who focuses on Necromancy - the study of the undead should be as capable as a Cleric...

For some reason this is a popular theory as of late. I seem to recall gaming in my youth "Necromancers" were synonymous with "Evil Clerics" or "Death Priest". Why "should" mere mortals be capable of matching the will of the Gods (acting through their Clerics of course) at all levels of play? If Arcane Casters are capable of so much why do you need Clerics?

Food for thought,
William Holder

 

[Kurashu]

Too bad the Dread Necromancer class is only 8 levels long.

Cleric's only 1 level long. Unless you plan on becoming a turn monkey, or as I call them, a Turkey.

 

[Thondor]

I suppose I see a difference between a wizard tampering with corpse vs. tampering with an actual spirit of someone who has passed.
The cleric is the one who could actually speak with the spirit of the deceased and bring them back to life. After all gods are more interested in the eternal part of their followers (and potential followers) then the empty shells.

This distinction Divine casters as the only ones who should be able to cast spells involving the spirit and soul should remain. While a devoted arcane spellcaster should be able to gain relatively equal footing with clerics when it comes to the dead.

So . . . new proposal

To gain the following benefits a Necromancer must sacrifice a 3rd school of magic (of course as per PHB non of those schools can be Divination)

1. Rebuke Undead as a Cleric of equal level. However the Wizard can never effect a undead that is or contains a Soul/spirit. Eg. cannot effect Ghosts, Vampires, (uuhhhh I actually can't think of any others help?)

2 Gain as Arcane Spells

Detect undead (1st level spell)
Hide from Undead (1st level spell)
Animate Dead as 3rd level spell (like a cleric instead of 4th like wizard)
Speak with Dead as 3rd level spell
Disrupting Weapon level 5 spell

As an aside I would add a level 4 "Speak with Spirit Cleric" spell similar to speak with dead except it actually allows conversation with the Spirit of the deceased - the spirit is not compelled to answer however and can terminate the communication. Give it expensive component and a focus of the corpse, piece of the corpse or a object or person the spent a great deal of time with or had a great love for. (someones son would be a good example.)

 

[sirwmholder]

Just a thought...

I suppose I see a difference between a wizard tampering with corpse vs. tampering with an actual spirit of someone who has passed.
The cleric is the one who could actually speak with the spirit of the deceased and bring them back to life. After all gods are more interested in the eternal part of their followers (and potential followers) then the empty shells.

This distinction Divine casters as the only ones who should be able to cast spells involving the spirit and soul should remain. While a devoted arcane spellcaster should be able to gain relatively equal footing with clerics when it comes to the dead.

In my experience D&D will not lend itself well to this distinction... (see below)

So . . . new proposal

To gain the following benefits a Necromancer must sacrifice a 3rd school of magic (of course as per PHB non of those schools can be Divination)

1. Rebuke Undead as a Cleric of equal level. However the Wizard can never effect a undead that is or contains a Soul/spirit. Eg. cannot effect Ghosts, Vampires, (uuhhhh I actually can't think of any others help?)

2 Gain as Arcane Spells

Detect undead (1st level spell)
Hide from Undead (1st level spell)
Animate Dead as 3rd level spell (like a cleric instead of 4th like wizard)
Speak with Dead as 3rd level spell
Disrupting Weapon level 5 spell

As an aside I would add a level 4 "Speak with Spirit Cleric" spell similar to speak with dead except it actually allows conversation with the Spirit of the deceased - the spirit is not compelled to answer however and can terminate the communication. Give it expensive component and a focus of the corpse, piece of the corpse or a object or person the spent a great deal of time with or had a great love for. (someones son would be a good example.)

In order for this to work you'll need to define or redefine a few things in your campaign... first does Animate Dead have the [ Evil ] descriptor. If so why? If it is because a spirit can't rest while it's "shell" is out causing suffering then that spell would be affecting a spirit and off limits. If not, then are all Undead neutral except intelligent undead? If Undead are Neutral by default then how are they viewed by the population at large? Back on point, that leaves us with skeletons and zombies... possibly ghouls that a Necromancer can hold any sway over... does that limitation fit with the idea you had envisioned for a Necromancer? Don't get me wrong it's a cool concept and a Troll Zombie can be nasty but may I suggest a slight addition to your proposal... allow the Necromancer to give a zombie template to their familiar. It would give it a slight boost but add loads of flavor for the class.

Hope atleast some of this helps,
William Holder

 

[Vrecknidj]

I wouldn't want to see the necromancer give up the familiar for it. There's something iconic about the icky necromancer dude and his weird pet.

Rather, perhaps it could be granted through feats, or maybe the simplest solution is just a prestige class (as has been mentioned).

Something like a Turn/Rebuke Undead feat would do the trick. Kinda lame, I guess, but it would work.

Turn/Rebuke Undead [General]
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 3rd level Necromancer spells, Wis 13, Cha 13, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks
Benefit: You gain the ability to turn or rebuke undead. When you make turning attempts and calculate the effect, treat your Cleric level as your caster level - 3.

Just throwing it out there.

Dave

 

[ed209uardo]

If a Wizard specializing in necromancy gave up their familiar, their bonus feats, and their bonus necromancy slot, and in exchange got the ability to rebuke undead as a cleric 3 levels lower...

would this be balanced? Underpowered?

would this be a better/worse/equal build to the Necro/Cleric character build, given that all you are interested in is making and controlling undead?

... I don't know if you'll find this useful, but the Revised Necromancer Handbook might be of interest...

 

[Stratovarius]

For some reason this is a popular theory as of late. I seem to recall gaming in my youth "Necromancers" were synonymous with "Evil Clerics" or "Death Priest". Why "should" mere mortals be capable of matching the will of the Gods (acting through their Clerics of course) at all levels of play? If Arcane Casters are capable of so much why do you need Clerics?

Food for thought,
William Holder

I've been dealing with fantasy for a fairly long time, and I'd have to say I've always had the exact opposite impression. Necromancers were always wizards, and the thought of a cleric being anywhere near as good is something I find very, very odd. Clerics retain their healing capabilities, but I pretty much excuse them from any undead-related abilities and give them over to the arcane side, where I feel they belong. The Dread Necromancer certainly helped in this, but I've made more than a few classes and changes of my own in that regard.