Need advice for upcoming Gestalt campaign

holyplankton

First Post
I have a Gestalt campaign beginning in a couple weeks and I would appreciate some advice on some class combinations to use. Right now I have two characters made (starting at level 3) that I am contemplating, but I'm not as imaginative with these types of characters as I could be. I have a Rogue/Swashbuckler that I would use as a thief character. Someone people could hire to break into other people's houses and steal items, possibly some assassinations later on. I also have a Black Crystal Lord/Scout that would be a more traditional wandering warrior type.

Quick background info for the campaign:

It will be a setting similar to Game of Thrones, only with more prevalent magic. Each character in the campaign essentially has their own story line, with only occasional meetings with other PCs, if any at all. So, any character made essentially has to be able to work alone, or be able to recruit some NPC aid. The Rogue/Swashbuckler would be in one of the major cities, while the Crystal Lord/Scout would be the younger son of one of the minor noble houses, some kind of enforcer keeping the peace locally.

Any ideas on what I could do with these characters, or other character ideas, would be greatly appreciated. I would eventually take the Rogue character into a Thief-Acrobat at some point, but other than that I'd be playing by ear. I am also amenable to playing a political character, but I'm no sure which classes work best for that style. Rogue/Bard?
 

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I would recommend Swashbuckler 3 / Wizard 3. Swashbuckler 3 is a great dip, but I wouldn't touch the rest of that class. In further levels I would suggest Rogue levels until you can PrC into something more interesting.
 


Ranger 3 / Scout 3 - archer for hire, could also be a magistrate's guard captain or troop trainer. (take Swift Hunter as your third level feat; and if you start as Elf, for the 1st substitution level for ranger, you can choose from a few favored enemies that give a +3 bonus instead of a +2)

Wizard 3 / Warblade 3 - essentially a spellsword without the PrC, makes for a good solo character able to handle himself in many situations.

Warlock 3 / Rogue 3 - sneakiness with a built in magic ranged weapon, lots of self-buffs that are definitely worth it to a rogue, later on damage reduction and self-healing... fun combo that i've actually playtested myself in a gestalt game.

Paladin 3 / Sorcerer 3 - An arcane knight devoted to the sovereignty of his people and the crown (max out the charisma for awesome saves and spell casting)

Cleric 3 / Racial Paragon 3 - A divine paragon of your race (and a DMM persistent buffer)
 

Cloistered Cleric 3//Druid 3 - you can't be more divine than this. =P

Don't go for rogue//bard, it increases MAD. Instead, be a rogue//wizard. If the campaign last for a lot of time and you get to high levels, you can became a scout 3/swash 3/rogue all the way in one side of the gestalt, so you can take both swift ambush and daring outlaw. The other side of the gestalt, became a wizard (always a good choice) and a prestige class that suit you.
 

I have a Gestalt campaign beginning in a couple weeks and I would appreciate some advice on some class combinations to use. Right now I have two characters made (starting at level 3) that I am contemplating, but I'm not as imaginative with these types of characters as I could be. I have a Rogue/Swashbuckler that I would use as a thief character. Someone people could hire to break into other people's houses and steal items, possibly some assassinations later on. I also have a Black Crystal Lord/Scout that would be a more traditional wandering warrior type.

Quick background info for the campaign:

It will be a setting similar to Game of Thrones, only with more prevalent magic. Each character in the campaign essentially has their own story line, with only occasional meetings with other PCs, if any at all. So, any character made essentially has to be able to work alone, or be able to recruit some NPC aid. The Rogue/Swashbuckler would be in one of the major cities, while the Crystal Lord/Scout would be the younger son of one of the minor noble houses, some kind of enforcer keeping the peace locally.

Any ideas on what I could do with these characters, or other character ideas, would be greatly appreciated. I would eventually take the Rogue character into a Thief-Acrobat at some point, but other than that I'd be playing by ear. I am also amenable to playing a political character, but I'm no sure which classes work best for that style. Rogue/Bard?


Well, I'm not familiar with Crystal Lord, however, I can definately give some generic Gestalt advice (although most of these can get a little fuzzy):
(spoilered for length)[sblock]
1) Don't pair things that are too similiar. Sure, the Fighter//Barbarian looks good on the surface, as does the Druid//Cleric, the Wizard//Sorcerer, or the Rogue//Bard... but they have too many things in common. Each pairing only does slightly more than what one class would alone - similar skill points, similar BAB, similar saves, similar hit dice, and so on make for bad combinations.

2) Remember the action economy. You generally want to pair classes in an Active//Passive manner. You want something to use your standard and full-round actions, and something else that doesn't burn your actions - so if you're looking at being melee, you want one side to have full BAB for the attacks, and the other to give long-duration buffs (such as Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, or Druid), really good saves (Monk, or whatever happens to be the save compliment of the full BAB class), or passive boosts to your primary schtick (such as Rogue for sneak attack), Then there's things that break the action economy into little pieces, such as the Factotum after 8th level.

3) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. Sure, that Monk//Paladin might look like a good melee character on the surface... but you need Strength, Dex, Con, Wis, and Cha. You've only got so many good rolls, or you've only got so much point buy... unless you rolled all 18's, but even then, you've only got so much to spend on the basic stat boosters - which means you want to pair things that use the same primary statistics. Psion and Factotum (Int), Druid and Ninja (Wis), Paladin and Wilder (Cha), and so on make good combinations.

4) Try to avoid pairings that negate parts of each other (some of this is unavoidable, though), and look for pairings that synergise well (yes, it's not just a buzzword for management). A Monk//Fighter is horrible; You can't use Monk class features in armor, and you can't flurry with all but a handful of weapons, which loses you much of what you get from the Fighter (armor, shield, and weapon proficiencies). For the Druid//Ninja, however... Ninja requires that the Druid be unarmored to use many Ninja class features... but Wildshape suppresses most equipment anyway, and the Druid can only use nonmetallic armor in the first place, so very little is lost. Likewise, Wildshape gives you many attacks, as well as Pounce, while Ninja gives you sudden strike (which triggers on a per-hit basis, going great with the many attacks and pounce) and Ghost Step (a swift-action boost, wis-based, which makes you invisible - both more likely to hit and makes Sudden Strike viable).

5) Check with the DM on how he'll handle LA. This isn't really specified in Gestalt, but if your DM says that as a starting Gestalt-3 character you can be a [Class-3]//[LA and hit dice 3], you should probably go for it; if your DM says the LA will cost class levels on both sides, you probably shouldn't. Scaling templates (such as Phrenic, Half-Fey, Mineral Warrior, Feral, and so on) are recommended over non-scaling monster races (such as half-dragon, Drow, and so on), unless you expect the game to fall apart quickly.

6) Be aware of power curves (you can also call this 'be a Full Caster, and something other than a full caster'). Full Casters (and Full Caster-cognates, such as the Psion and Wilder) start out relatively weak, but scale roughly quadratically with level (new, better abilities, with previous abilities improving automatically), while Melee starts out relatively strong, but scales fairly linearly (a few new features, and BAB improves, but that's about it). Skill monkeys tend to start out with medium power and stay somewhere between melee and Full Casters for most of their careers. You'll want to pair something that starts strong with something that grows well.

7) Check with the DM on multiclass and prestige class rules. Keeping in mind rule 2 (Action economy, with Active//Passive combinations being good), you may want to consider 'going crazy' with multiclassing on one side, as there are a lot of non-casting classes that are heavily weighted for the first few levels - an eventual build that will look like Sorcerer-20//Paladin of Tyrrany-2 (Divine Blessing for Charisma to AC)/Hexblade-3(Arcane Resistance for Charisma to Saves vs. Spells, Mettle)/Monk-2(With Ascetic Mage - for Evasion, and Charisma to AC)/Arcane Duelist-2 (Charisma to AC again)/Rogue-3 (for trapfinding, a little sneak attack to boost range touch spells, and UMD as a class skill)/Swordsage-2 (for a couple of higher-level manuevers)/Cleric-2(For a few select domains, such as Pride, as well as easy access to Divine wands)/et cetera - a build that quickly becomes very hard to kill, while still packing lots of offensive punch.

In your specific case, also make sure you have the bases covered, so to speak - band-aids (HP healing), day-after pills ([Lesser] Restoration, Remove Curse, Break Enchantment, [Greater] Dispel Magic, and so on), trapfinding (That might be through the rogue class feature, or that might be by combining the Reserve Feats Summon Elemental, Magic Sensitive, and Acidic Splatter from complete Mage - Summon Elemental to send a disposable minion ahead of you to soak most traps, magic Sensitive to spot the discriminating magic traps that won't affect the elemental, and Acidic Splatter to destroy found traps physically, taking advantage of the clause in Disable Device that the skill isn't the only way to get rid of a trap), mobility (flight, teleportation), hard-to-fool senses (be that ranks in Spot and Listen, a one level dip into Mindbender to get the Telepathy needed to qualify for Mindsight from Lords of Madness, or something else), and offense (be that spells, Full BAB, or Sneak Attack).
[/sblock]
Edit: Oh yes, and don't forget Rule Negative 1: The goal of the game is FUN, first and foremost. Be aware of your table's expected power level, keep to it, and everyone (yourself included) is much more likely to meet the goal.
 
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Thanks for the replies guys, this is great. That Warlock/Rogue idea sounds intriguing. I'm actually playing a Warlock in our Colosseum campaign right now, and I'm having fun with it. Very Versatile with his Invocations, and can be worked well with Rogue, especially with some thief-acrobat later on.
 

Well, I'm not familiar with Crystal Lord, however, I can definately give some generic Gestalt advice (although most of these can get a little fuzzy):
(spoilered for length)[sblock]
1) Don't pair things that are too similiar. Sure, the Fighter//Barbarian looks good on the surface, as does the Druid//Cleric, the Wizard//Sorcerer, or the Rogue//Bard... but they have too many things in common. Each pairing only does slightly more than what one class would alone - similar skill points, similar BAB, similar saves, similar hit dice, and so on make for bad combinations.

2) Remember the action economy. You generally want to pair classes in an Active//Passive manner. You want something to use your standard and full-round actions, and something else that doesn't burn your actions - so if you're looking at being melee, you want one side to have full BAB for the attacks, and the other to give long-duration buffs (such as Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, or Druid), really good saves (Monk, or whatever happens to be the save compliment of the full BAB class), or passive boosts to your primary schtick (such as Rogue for sneak attack), Then there's things that break the action economy into little pieces, such as the Factotum after 8th level.

3) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. Sure, that Monk//Paladin might look like a good melee character on the surface... but you need Strength, Dex, Con, Wis, and Cha. You've only got so many good rolls, or you've only got so much point buy... unless you rolled all 18's, but even then, you've only got so much to spend on the basic stat boosters - which means you want to pair things that use the same primary statistics. Psion and Factotum (Int), Druid and Ninja (Wis), Paladin and Wilder (Cha), and so on make good combinations.

4) Try to avoid pairings that negate parts of each other (some of this is unavoidable, though), and look for pairings that synergise well (yes, it's not just a buzzword for management). A Monk//Fighter is horrible; You can't use Monk class features in armor, and you can't flurry with all but a handful of weapons, which loses you much of what you get from the Fighter (armor, shield, and weapon proficiencies). For the Druid//Ninja, however... Ninja requires that the Druid be unarmored to use many Ninja class features... but Wildshape suppresses most equipment anyway, and the Druid can only use nonmetallic armor in the first place, so very little is lost. Likewise, Wildshape gives you many attacks, as well as Pounce, while Ninja gives you sudden strike (which triggers on a per-hit basis, going great with the many attacks and pounce) and Ghost Step (a swift-action boost, wis-based, which makes you invisible - both more likely to hit and makes Sudden Strike viable).

5) Check with the DM on how he'll handle LA. This isn't really specified in Gestalt, but if your DM says that as a starting Gestalt-3 character you can be a [Class-3]//[LA and hit dice 3], you should probably go for it; if your DM says the LA will cost class levels on both sides, you probably shouldn't. Scaling templates (such as Phrenic, Half-Fey, Mineral Warrior, Feral, and so on) are recommended over non-scaling monster races (such as half-dragon, Drow, and so on), unless you expect the game to fall apart quickly.

6) Be aware of power curves (you can also call this 'be a Full Caster, and something other than a full caster'). Full Casters (and Full Caster-cognates, such as the Psion and Wilder) start out relatively weak, but scale roughly quadratically with level (new, better abilities, with previous abilities improving automatically), while Melee starts out relatively strong, but scales fairly linearly (a few new features, and BAB improves, but that's about it). Skill monkeys tend to start out with medium power and stay somewhere between melee and Full Casters for most of their careers. You'll want to pair something that starts strong with something that grows well.

7) Check with the DM on multiclass and prestige class rules. Keeping in mind rule 2 (Action economy, with Active//Passive combinations being good), you may want to consider 'going crazy' with multiclassing on one side, as there are a lot of non-casting classes that are heavily weighted for the first few levels - an eventual build that will look like Sorcerer-20//Paladin of Tyrrany-2 (Divine Blessing for Charisma to AC)/Hexblade-3(Arcane Resistance for Charisma to Saves vs. Spells, Mettle)/Monk-2(With Ascetic Mage - for Evasion, and Charisma to AC)/Arcane Duelist-2 (Charisma to AC again)/Rogue-3 (for trapfinding, a little sneak attack to boost range touch spells, and UMD as a class skill)/Swordsage-2 (for a couple of higher-level manuevers)/Cleric-2(For a few select domains, such as Pride, as well as easy access to Divine wands)/et cetera - a build that quickly becomes very hard to kill, while still packing lots of offensive punch.

In your specific case, also make sure you have the bases covered, so to speak - band-aids (HP healing), day-after pills ([Lesser] Restoration, Remove Curse, Break Enchantment, [Greater] Dispel Magic, and so on), trapfinding (That might be through the rogue class feature, or that might be by combining the Reserve Feats Summon Elemental, Magic Sensitive, and Acidic Splatter from complete Mage - Summon Elemental to send a disposable minion ahead of you to soak most traps, magic Sensitive to spot the discriminating magic traps that won't affect the elemental, and Acidic Splatter to destroy found traps physically, taking advantage of the clause in Disable Device that the skill isn't the only way to get rid of a trap), mobility (flight, teleportation), hard-to-fool senses (be that ranks in Spot and Listen, a one level dip into Mindbender to get the Telepathy needed to qualify for Mindsight from Lords of Madness, or something else), and offense (be that spells, Full BAB, or Sneak Attack).
[/sblock]
Edit: Oh yes, and don't forget Rule Negative 1: The goal of the game is FUN, first and foremost. Be aware of your table's expected power level, keep to it, and everyone (yourself included) is much more likely to meet the goal.

Druid//Cleric may seem a bad idea, but Druid//cloistered cleric is not!!! CC and Druid only share the same saves (but you still end with the best saves, losing only to monk). Actually these two classes have a lot of synergy. Both has WIS as first ability, both spell list can be affected by DMM, both don't care for metal armor (at least, not the good ones). Depending of the domain choices, you can anything.

Aff... this made me want to play gestalt!!!
Have fun with the warlock//rogue. It seems to be very good.
 

Druid//Cleric may seem a bad idea, but Druid//cloistered cleric is not!!! CC and Druid only share the same saves (but you still end with the best saves, losing only to monk). Actually these two classes have a lot of synergy. Both has WIS as first ability, both spell list can be affected by DMM, both don't care for metal armor (at least, not the good ones). Depending of the domain choices, you can anything.

Aff... this made me want to play gestalt!!!
Have fun with the warlock//rogue. It seems to be very good.
Fails guideline 2 almost completely (both have the same primary schtick - casting spells - so you can't be both at the same time effectively, for the most part), and there's a lot of overlap between the Druid and Cleric spell lists. It'll work just fine, like most gestalt builds will (that one will do well in endurance runs), but it's only a little above a plain Cleric or a plain Druid.
 

Fails guideline 2 almost completely (both have the same primary schtick - casting spells - so you can't be both at the same time effectively, for the most part), and there's a lot of overlap between the Druid and Cleric spell lists. It'll work just fine, like most gestalt builds will (that one will do well in endurance runs), but it's only a little above a plain Cleric or a plain Druid.

Action economy- It seems I misunderstood the concept. This action economy can't be interpreted as buff spells casted before combat and offensive spells casted during combat? Also, my main thought was buff and go wild shape during battle. Additionally, this build could identify almost every monster and magic item (lore). It's true that the core spell lists overlap a lot on the early levels, but at high levels and using spell compendium, they have a lot of different spells. If you still think that the spell lists do not mesh well, give up a domain and take the divine magician alternative class, so you get all spells from druid, cleric and abjuration/divination/necromancy arcane spells.

You can say that the pure cleric and pure druid are on pair with this king of gestalt. This can be true to an isolated fight only. As the number of encounters happen during the day, you will see the difference.

Cleric are the most versatile of the classes and druid is one of the most powerful classes ever. They cover all the bases, can be the skillful monkey, the buffer, the big stupid fighter, the heal bot, control the battle field, blaster. The druid has a lot of buffs that makes cleric awesome: take a monk's belt and cast owl's insight and you would not be touched, your magic would be irresistible. Out of combat you can cast substitute domain and change your domain to Spell, cast Contingency to save your neck when things get bad, both spells lasts for days. You can use venom in you arrows. The spell Imbue with Spell Ability can give your animal companion the short buffs to cast (that will affect you and the animal) while you control the battle field.

There are too many spells that make this combination very strong. But I admit that keep track of all this spells can be boring...:erm:
 

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