Need advice for upcoming Gestalt campaign

[Jack Simth]

Action economy- It seems I misunderstood the concept. This action economy can't be interpreted as buff spells casted before combat and offensive spells casted during combat? Also, my main thought was buff and go wild shape during battle.

Oh, it can be that way - but consider: If you're wading into melee, you're not using many, if any, of those offensive spells you prepared. If you're standing there and Spelling opponents' doom, then you're not making much use of all those buffs you've cast. It's a build with two sides that both require the use of your actions. The Druid//Cleric is a little better than a pure Druid, and a little better than a pure Cleric, but other combinations will do much better.

Additionally, this build could identify almost every monster and magic item (lore).

Really? And here I thought Lore said "This ability is identical to the bard's bardic knowledge class feature, using the cloistered cleric's class level in place of the bard level. ", with Bardic Knowledge including the lines "relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places" and "A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function." - monsters are not on the list of things that Bardic Knowledge says it can identify, and Magic Items are a fairly explicitly not identified. Where are you getting this?

It's true that the core spell lists overlap a lot on the early levels,

Ah... they overlap a lot in function, if not in spell name, for a really, really long time. Summon Nature's Ally and Summon Monster, for instance, are really little more than variants of the same thing. Both get most of the Cure line (although after Cure Light, Druids are delayed a spell level in that regard), both get Wind Walk, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Heal, and quite a few others. There's a lot of overlap between the two.

but at high levels and using spell compendium, they have a lot of different spells.

And yet, most of them still have comperable functions; many of them even overlap in bonus types, and somehow I doubt you're going to be using Phantom Stag at the same time as Wind Walk, for instance.

If you still think that the spell lists do not mesh well, give up a domain and take the divine magician alternative class, so you get all spells from druid, cleric and abjuration/divination/necromancy arcane spells.

I haven't seen that variant before; where's it located?

You can say that the pure cleric and pure druid are on pair with this king of gestalt. This can be true to an isolated fight only. As the number of encounters happen during the day, you will see the difference.

I did note that the build will do fairly well in endurance runs when I first disagreed with you. That was "(that one will do well in endurance runs)" - simply because you've got a rather lot of spells. But most Gestalt builds have more endurance to a goodly degree, to the point where it's actually mentioned in the Gestalt rules themselves.

And I didn't say they're on par - I said they're only a little over the pure Druid or the pure Cleric. For simple combinations like that, you've got three of five relevant guidelines down. It's a little over a strong tier-1 class, so it's not a creampuff by any means, but you can do better; it's hardly a king of gestalt.

Cleric are the most versatile of the classes and druid is one of the most powerful classes ever. They cover all the bases, can be the skillful monkey, the buffer, the big stupid fighter, the heal bot, control the battle field, blaster.

So can a normal Cloistered Cleric. So can a normal Druid. You're a little above either class without Gestalt, but not by all that much.

The druid has a lot of buffs that makes cleric awesome: take a monk's belt and cast owl's insight and you would not be touched, your magic would be irresistible.

Err... and what's stopping a Druid from doing this without Gestalt?

Out of combat you can cast substitute domain and change your domain to Spell, cast Contingency to save your neck when things get bad, both spells lasts for days.

Again, you can do this without Gestalt. It's not actually all that hard to get domain access for a Druid (and Clerics can do this complete trick natively). A one level dip in any of a number of PrC's will do it, and then Domain Draughts or certain spells can change the domain.

You can use venom in you arrows. The spell Imbue with Spell Ability can give your animal companion the short buffs to cast (that will affect you and the animal) while you control the battle field.

Err... Share Spells in one-way. You can have spells that you cast that affect you also affect your animal companion, but it doesn't work the other way around. Additionally, Imbue with Spell Ability caps off at 2nd level spells, and when it comes to your animal companion, it's got some severe limitations: "To cast a spell with a verbal component, the subject must be able to speak. To cast a spell with a somatic component, it must have humanlike hands. To cast a spell with a material component or focus, it must have the materials or focus. " - oh yes, and "Only cleric spells from the schools of abjuration, divination, and conjuration (healing) can be transferred" via Imbue with Spell Ability, which severely limits the buff spells you can use.

It's a handy spell, and lets you give some emergency healing to a fellow player, but... ah... I don't really see it as that grand of a spell, myself.

There are too many spells that make this combination very strong. But I admit that keep track of all this spells can be boring...

The thing is, most of the tricks you mention can be done by either base class alone with only a small amount of build work and/or item selection.

Don't get me wrong - it's not a bad gestalt combination - you're slightly stronger than two fairly powerful classes, so you won't feel left out of the game if you make reasonable decisions - but you really can do much better.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Try Warlock//Dragonfire Adept. Make use of a number of excellent 24 hour buffs.

 

[holyplankton]

Where did you find Dragonfire Adept? I usually cycle through Homebrew, but I don't see it there.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Where did you find Dragonfire Adept? I usually cycle through Homebrew, but I don't see it there.

Dragon Magic p.24, a 3.5 publication.

Also, an Excerpt Here Has Most Of The Info.

Understand, a Warlock//Dragonfire Adept is not a "Uber Powerful" build. It is great for the utilty of Invocations and gives you a lot of flexability in the build. It's really fun to play. But it's not going to have the raw power of a full caster and tons of HP and full BAB, etc.

 

[Nezkrul]

another interesting build, though it takes 6 levels to get going, is Scout 3 / Swashbuckler 3 to start, then when you start gaining levels, on the scout said take Ranger to infinity, and on the swashbuckler side take rogue to infinity, so you end up like Scout 3 / Ranger 17 // Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue 17; take Swift Hunter and Daring Outlaw feats, you end up with crazy damage potential in melee and range.

 

[Binho]

Oh, it can be that way - but consider: If you're wading into melee, you're not using many, if any, of those offensive spells you prepared. If you're standing there and Spelling opponents' doom, then you're not making much use of all those buffs you've cast. It's a build with two sides that both require the use of your actions. The Druid//Cleric is a little better than a pure Druid, and a little better than a pure Cleric, but other combinations will do much better.

Really? And here I thought Lore said "This ability is identical to the bard's bardic knowledge class feature, using the cloistered cleric's class level in place of the bard level. ", with Bardic Knowledge including the lines "relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places" and "A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function." - monsters are not on the list of things that Bardic Knowledge says it can identify, and Magic Items are a fairly explicitly not identified. Where are you getting this?
Ah... they overlap a lot in function, if not in spell name, for a really, really long time. Summon Nature's Ally and Summon Monster, for instance, are really little more than variants of the same thing. Both get most of the Cure line (although after Cure Light, Druids are delayed a spell level in that regard), both get Wind Walk, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Heal, and quite a few others. There's a lot of overlap between the two.
And yet, most of them still have comperable functions; many of them even overlap in bonus types, and somehow I doubt you're going to be using Phantom Stag at the same time as Wind Walk, for instance.
I haven't seen that variant before; where's it located?
I did note that the build will do fairly well in endurance runs when I first disagreed with you. That was "(that one will do well in endurance runs)" - simply because you've got a rather lot of spells. But most Gestalt builds have more endurance to a goodly degree, to the point where it's actually mentioned in the Gestalt rules themselves.

And I didn't say they're on par - I said they're only a little over the pure Druid or the pure Cleric. For simple combinations like that, you've got three of five relevant guidelines down. It's a little over a strong tier-1 class, so it's not a creampuff by any means, but you can do better; it's hardly a king of gestalt.
So can a normal Cloistered Cleric. So can a normal Druid. You're a little above either class without Gestalt, but not by all that much.
Err... and what's stopping a Druid from doing this without Gestalt?
Again, you can do this without Gestalt. It's not actually all that hard to get domain access for a Druid (and Clerics can do this complete trick natively). A one level dip in any of a number of PrC's will do it, and then Domain Draughts or certain spells can change the domain.
Err... Share Spells in one-way. You can have spells that you cast that affect you also affect your animal companion, but it doesn't work the other way around. Additionally, Imbue with Spell Ability caps off at 2nd level spells, and when it comes to your animal companion, it's got some severe limitations: "To cast a spell with a verbal component, the subject must be able to speak. To cast a spell with a somatic component, it must have humanlike hands. To cast a spell with a material component or focus, it must have the materials or focus. " - oh yes, and "Only cleric spells from the schools of abjuration, divination, and conjuration (healing) can be transferred" via Imbue with Spell Ability, which severely limits the buff spells you can use.

It's a handy spell, and lets you give some emergency healing to a fellow player, but... ah... I don't really see it as that grand of a spell, myself.

The thing is, most of the tricks you mention can be done by either base class alone with only a small amount of build work and/or item selection.

Don't get me wrong - it's not a bad gestalt combination - you're slightly stronger than two fairly powerful classes, so you won't feel left out of the game if you make reasonable decisions - but you really can do much better.

The spell Tongues (which is not a druid spell)+Imbue with Spell Abilities, it caps at lv2, but your animal could cast spells with vocal component like: Avoid Planar Effects, Close Wounds, Divine Interdiction, Grave Strike, Omen of Peril, Peaceful Serenity of Io for you. Err, I know, crap selection of spells. But some are useful: close wounds (imediate action), grave strike can be useful for the party (swift), peaceful serenity of Io can be used to buff you and your companion (not a great buff).

The share spells makes all spells that affect the druid also affect the animal companion. So the imbued buffs would be casted on the Druid, not the animal (that's why I usually make builds that mount the companion, to affect both, always).

As a druid//cloistered cleric you can choose to go melee or to stand casting offensive spells. If you choose to cast, that does not mean that your buffs are being wasted. This build favor buffs that increase Wis to make your spells irresistible; your AC higher; grant mobility like 3d combat options.

If you choose to go melee, you can still cast spells. With the wild shape and a feat, you can cast grace (sacred bonus to Dex plus other things), knight's move(flank without move action), blade of blood, blood wind (full attack at distance with claws), Manifestation of the Deity, delay death, close wounds, etherealness swift. All these spells are swift actions from cleric spell list, not druid. If you add the druid spells, metamagic and divine magician, you can be a lot more useful than a druid//ninja for example.

I agree with you that gestalt is about passive//active way. Almost always the passive will be a buffer. The active can be a spellcaster, a tactical assassin or a big fighter. The buffs you cast can make you the war machine in melee, make your spells stronger or make you an immortal tank. These last two kind of buffs have a lot of uses for a spellcaster. Also, your companion makes use of the buffs as well.

About the identification of monsters, I should be more clear. Cloistered Clerics have access to all knowledge skills and 6+int skill points. With this he can identify most monsters on sight. Lore can give information about magic items.

The overlapping: this is really true. But you are only seeing the overlapping. Both classes can make use of spells that belongs to each other lists. So, the first thought should be search for spells that do not overlap, not the contrary. Let's say, shield other and your animal companion; you can heal both with one spell. You can also persist any persistable druid spell (sirine's grace for example, that helps with turning). A lot of spells of the druid list do not overlap the cleric.

Divine magician is from Complete Mage:

Divine Magician - Complete Mage: It's the "Make your own Domain" ACF. Instead of a power, you get to add a wizard spell at each level of spell. Not the greatest schools, but solid choices for what you're giving up. Nice if you have to choose a deity and there's not two good domain choices. PhaedrusXY has a rework of good spells to choose from here.

You would be interested in this handbook too: Divine Magician Handbook

Your arguments are that the classes I'm pointing can do the same without going gestalt, but they can't do it all at once. They can possibly be as awesome as a gestalt, but, isolated, they just don't have enough spell slots. They have limited spells and can't do every trick without resting 8 hours.

Let's compare with your suggestion: druid//ninja can go wildshape and strike the weak spot of the foe. But the foe only need access to See invisibility/tremor sense/true seeing/smell (abilities that can be seen in a lot of monsters) to negate your sudden strike. You would end like a druid with monk's belt, worst than the cloistered cleric//druid because of the all day buffs. Actually, choosing a class that gives an ability that can be easily simulated by an item is a bad idea, from the point of optimization. On the other hand, the CC//druid could use the same tactic more effectively: casting Nightstalker's trasnformation with anyspell greater the cc//druid and his companion would be affected too, so both can flank and deal sneak attack together. (the Nightstalker's transformation is just an example to show how magic can be versatile, by far not the most optimized way to waste your spells)

You are neglecting the most awesome class ability of the game: Spells. With it you can simulate every game mechanic ever created in D&D.

Ow, you are right about other thing: Cloistered/druid is not the king of Gestalt. You can do a lot better than this simple combination. I'm just saying that it is a really good choice of gestalt; useful, versatile and strong. It cover all the bases, far better than isolated druid or cleric.

I'm curious, which class do you Jack Simth would pick to be pair with cloistered cleric in a gestalt build??? =)

Sorry for my crap English, i know i may have written a lot of things the wrong way.

 

[Binho]

another interesting build, though it takes 6 levels to get going, is Scout 3 / Swashbuckler 3 to start, then when you start gaining levels, on the scout said take Ranger to infinity, and on the swashbuckler side take rogue to infinity, so you end up like Scout 3 / Ranger 17 // Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue 17; take Swift Hunter and Daring Outlaw feats, you end up with crazy damage potential in melee and range.

it can be redundant, but this build could use Swift Ambusher to add rogue and scout for skirmish. I don't know how this would be:

1) you would end up with swift ambush as a scout lv 37;
2) you can't use feat combos with the other side of the gestalt;
3) you can only accumulate skirmish to maximum your HD;
4) you can't do this at all...

 

[TarionzCousin]

If you're a fan of Elan in the Order of the Stick, you could be a Dashing Swordsman.

 

[Jack Simth]

I'm curious, which class do you Jack Simth would pick to be pair with cloistered cleric in a gestalt build??? =)/QUOTE]For a "Simple" build, probably Swordsage (if Tome of Battle is permitted). For a Druid, probably Ninja.

In either case, you get a number of passive boosts - Wis to AC, all good saves, and swift-action stuffs, d8 hit dice, and eventually Evasion.

In the Druid//Ninja case, you have swift-action one-round invisibility (based on Wisdom) starting at level 2, and Sudden Strike to go with it. At, say, 6th level, you could Wildshape into something with Pounce and a lot of Natural Attacks; when in combat, turn invisible as a swift action, charge, pounce, and hit someone for many attacks all of which have extra damage due to Sudden Strike - stackable with other effects, such as Venomfire (especially if you go with a Fleshraker) to take most individual targets down in one round if they're close to CR appropriate. This also nets 6 skill points per level, trapfinding, and several other class features. The Ninja side passively boosts the Druid side for going Druid-Zilla.

In the Cloistered Cleric//Swordsage case, you get light armour and manuevers. You pick one side for offence, the other for defence. If Swordsage is on the defence, you focus on immediate action counters and swift action boosts, while focusing the Cleric side on your standard clerical attack spells (and some long-term buffs). If Cloistered Cleric is on the defence, you focus your Swordsage manuevers on the various attacks and boosts, while you use your Cloistered Cleric casting for the long-duration buffs.

 

[Empath Negative]

Beguiler/Monk.

It's in the feat selection. you'll likely want to get Carmedine Monk, and Education right off the bat.

Carmedine Monk (or Kung Fu Genius) makes all of your monk abilities based on intelligence rather than wisdom with a few other perks.

And Education for access to all knowledge skills and some perks.

Then find out about "Knowledge Devotion" for your third level feat.



This character won't be ridiculously overpowered but will have amazing synergy and can be both stealthy and diplomatic while having access to some of the best spells in the game.

And he doesn't really suffer from MAD all that much.