Need clarification on "No Retailer Links" rule
- Thread starter HinterWelt
- Start date
Steve Conan Trustrum
Explorer
Because it doesn't become any less relevant when I see someone doing something contrary to things I've learned in that position, especially when that hard data is called "massive hyperbole."Morrus said:I know. You keep saying.
HinterWelt
First Post
All I will say is I am sorry I started this thread. I should have emailed you Morrus.
Bill
Bill
Steve Conan Trustrum
Explorer
I seriously doubt another thread wouldn't have sprung up in its place.HinterWelt said:
Steve Conan Trustrum said:
You're misunderstanding our point of disagreement, though, Steve. You're still working from the assumption that direct sales for publishers is as important to me as you think it should be; my disagreement lies in your analysis and judgement of how important that should be to me and the various reasons behind that - although that's going into depth again, and I must be honest and say that I'm not inclined to discuss that ad infinitum, as I am comfortable with my decision.
RangerWickett
Legend
EN World is a complicated place. I just spent 10 minutes trying to discuss different models of what the site would be like, but I scrapped what I typed because it became clear that EN World is the bard of the internet. It tries to do a little of everything.
If the gaming industry is a small town, then EN World is the friendly pub - O'Morrissey's Tavern - where people hang out. Folks can come here, get a drink and a bite to eat, watch the games on TV, and talk about the local gossip. It's a cool place, because everyone in the town, even people who own liquor stores, or restaurants, or TV stores, come here for the community.
The thing is, you're at O'Morrissey's, so while it's fine for the farmers and vintners to tell folks that they're selling their goods at Old MacDriveThru's general store, and while O'Morrissey wants to know if he's making life hard on the wine makers and the farmers, you simply don't try to sell your wine in the man's place. If you want to do business at O'Morrissey's, you do it with the help of O'Morrissey himself, and he gets a cut of profit. It's just the decent thing to do.
It's been a few years, and O'Morrissey has been doing fairly well, but he thinks he could make the old pub better if he added a general store in the old space where the rabbit cages used to be before dear sweet Mrs. O'Morrissey (rest her soul) passed on. He thinks folks will be quite happy to be able to drink, eat, and then pick up some groceries before staggering home to the missus. He wants to make his general store the best he possibly can. He hinted at his plans to the owner of the liquor store and the other general store to make sure they wouldn't hold it against him, and they understood that a little competition is good for business.
Thing is, though, that so caught up was O'Morrissey in his plans, that he did not realize that some of the farmers and vintners might see the new store as a problem, rather than an opportunity. Quite reasonably, O'Morrissey asked the vintners and the farmers that, at least while they're at his pub, not to tell folks to shop elsewhere. O'Morrissey knew (but for some reason forgot to mention) that he wanted to encourage all the vintners and farmers to sell at his store too, but because O'Morrissey is a stodgy old coot, when the first of the farmers complained, he got defensive, and started an argument that got off track.
Thankfully, O'Morrissey's friend Ryan O'Brien McBrian O'Reilly (uncle of O'Morrissey's best bar wench) saw that people were taking it the wrong way, and he tried to explain to the farmers and the vintners and the other folks in the pub who were getting nervous exactly what the new store was supposed to be there for. And people listened (because Ryan O'Brien McBrian O'Reilly's neice was the cutest little wench you've ever seen), and everyone realized that there wasn't a reason to get angry, and they all lived and drank and wenched happily ever after.
So, what's my point?
Russ is not trying to run out the competition. Rather, he sees that EN World already provides so much that gamers and publishers want and can use. It has a nice forum, fun storyhours, an art gallery, regular news about game-related websites, and press releases so that publishers can tell gamers what they're releasing. It even already had a mail-order catalogue of its own for people to order stuff from the big city (see the EN World RPG Shop, which could really use a bit of an update honestly). All it's lacking is a place for people to buy pdfs.
So Russ adds that one last thing.
Try this metaphor. RPGNow is a local game store. EN World is the town square, with a plethora of interesting things for people to do. Now EN World is opening a game store in the town square. Rather than worrying, publishers should be thrilled that they can sell at a place that already gets so much traffic.
It sounds like publishers are unhappy that people won't pay as much attention to the smaller store, because that might mean people won't buy from the smaller store as much. But if publishers take advantage of the new opportunity and sell at the new store, there's a chance they can get even more sales.
I'll say this. Russ, you are doing yourself a bit of a disservice in how you're handling this situation. You should be trying to convince people to sell at your store. You should not try to convince them that their concerns are wrong. In the former, you're offering them something (look, a new place to buy stuff!). In the latter, you're telling them they're wrong, and people plain don't like to be told they're wrong.
I think, however, that if you clarify what it is you're offering, rather than trying to tell them what you're not not doing, they're likely to change their minds on their own.
Folks should know that EN World can be a great place for them to sell their products, in addition to being a great place to hang out and talk about games and hear about upcoming releases and ramble randomly about Hiveminds. All you ask is that people understand that since there is a store here now, you don't want them pointing business elsewhere.
You want to encourage people to sell and to buy here. Instead, Russ, you're making it sound like they can't sell here at all. That's a bad idea.
If the gaming industry is a small town, then EN World is the friendly pub - O'Morrissey's Tavern - where people hang out. Folks can come here, get a drink and a bite to eat, watch the games on TV, and talk about the local gossip. It's a cool place, because everyone in the town, even people who own liquor stores, or restaurants, or TV stores, come here for the community.
The thing is, you're at O'Morrissey's, so while it's fine for the farmers and vintners to tell folks that they're selling their goods at Old MacDriveThru's general store, and while O'Morrissey wants to know if he's making life hard on the wine makers and the farmers, you simply don't try to sell your wine in the man's place. If you want to do business at O'Morrissey's, you do it with the help of O'Morrissey himself, and he gets a cut of profit. It's just the decent thing to do.
It's been a few years, and O'Morrissey has been doing fairly well, but he thinks he could make the old pub better if he added a general store in the old space where the rabbit cages used to be before dear sweet Mrs. O'Morrissey (rest her soul) passed on. He thinks folks will be quite happy to be able to drink, eat, and then pick up some groceries before staggering home to the missus. He wants to make his general store the best he possibly can. He hinted at his plans to the owner of the liquor store and the other general store to make sure they wouldn't hold it against him, and they understood that a little competition is good for business.
Thing is, though, that so caught up was O'Morrissey in his plans, that he did not realize that some of the farmers and vintners might see the new store as a problem, rather than an opportunity. Quite reasonably, O'Morrissey asked the vintners and the farmers that, at least while they're at his pub, not to tell folks to shop elsewhere. O'Morrissey knew (but for some reason forgot to mention) that he wanted to encourage all the vintners and farmers to sell at his store too, but because O'Morrissey is a stodgy old coot, when the first of the farmers complained, he got defensive, and started an argument that got off track.
Thankfully, O'Morrissey's friend Ryan O'Brien McBrian O'Reilly (uncle of O'Morrissey's best bar wench) saw that people were taking it the wrong way, and he tried to explain to the farmers and the vintners and the other folks in the pub who were getting nervous exactly what the new store was supposed to be there for. And people listened (because Ryan O'Brien McBrian O'Reilly's neice was the cutest little wench you've ever seen), and everyone realized that there wasn't a reason to get angry, and they all lived and drank and wenched happily ever after.
So, what's my point?
Russ is not trying to run out the competition. Rather, he sees that EN World already provides so much that gamers and publishers want and can use. It has a nice forum, fun storyhours, an art gallery, regular news about game-related websites, and press releases so that publishers can tell gamers what they're releasing. It even already had a mail-order catalogue of its own for people to order stuff from the big city (see the EN World RPG Shop, which could really use a bit of an update honestly). All it's lacking is a place for people to buy pdfs.
So Russ adds that one last thing.
Try this metaphor. RPGNow is a local game store. EN World is the town square, with a plethora of interesting things for people to do. Now EN World is opening a game store in the town square. Rather than worrying, publishers should be thrilled that they can sell at a place that already gets so much traffic.
It sounds like publishers are unhappy that people won't pay as much attention to the smaller store, because that might mean people won't buy from the smaller store as much. But if publishers take advantage of the new opportunity and sell at the new store, there's a chance they can get even more sales.
I'll say this. Russ, you are doing yourself a bit of a disservice in how you're handling this situation. You should be trying to convince people to sell at your store. You should not try to convince them that their concerns are wrong. In the former, you're offering them something (look, a new place to buy stuff!). In the latter, you're telling them they're wrong, and people plain don't like to be told they're wrong.
I think, however, that if you clarify what it is you're offering, rather than trying to tell them what you're not not doing, they're likely to change their minds on their own.
Folks should know that EN World can be a great place for them to sell their products, in addition to being a great place to hang out and talk about games and hear about upcoming releases and ramble randomly about Hiveminds. All you ask is that people understand that since there is a store here now, you don't want them pointing business elsewhere.
You want to encourage people to sell and to buy here. Instead, Russ, you're making it sound like they can't sell here at all. That's a bad idea.
Steve Conan Trustrum
Explorer
It's my fault if you're drawing the conclusion that i'm trying to imply that sales is as important to you as it is to me. I've no delusion that it is. There's no way I'd try to put forth such an idea. You are, however, correct in that we disagree over the ramifications of the indirect effects of publisher sales gained through EnWorld and what their lacking can easily entail for the site. As I've said, though, it's not my site and I hope, as you do, that EnWorld works out to be the exception to the rule as to what tends to happen under such policies. Despite my disagreement with your analysis in this regard, Morrus, i certainly hold no ill will to you or your site even if the decision doesn't sit well with me in this or that regard.Morrus said:
Steve Conan Trustrum said:
Well, no, you've been extremely civil and polite. I've had no problem with discussing it with you (even enjoyed parts of it!); but I do fundamentally disagree on a core principle of your argument, and it's clear we're not going to convince each other of anything here. That's cool. On a side-note, though, I hope you check out the new store - which is now ready for launch, I'm told.
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