Need critique for my combat system

Eltern

First Post
I run a heavily modified d20 game, and I've started to overhaul the combat system. What do you folks think of the rough draft below? For context, I use the Buy the Numbers system, which means there are no classes. Players purchase abilities/skills/feats/etc. directly with XP. In addition, I use the Elements of Magic system, but I don't think it will come into play much.

This system is designed to be gritty, with attacks that you can see cleary in your mind's eye. I've also tried to make it as streamlined as possible, taking care not to double count anything that really doesn't need to be double counted (for instance, rolling high on damage vs. rolling high to hit).

Health:
Each limb and the head have three wound "slots". The torso has four. The effects of having a certain number of wounds are described below.

Combat:

You can purchase both a “Base Attack Bonus” and a “Base Defense Bonus” with XP. They cost the same amount.

When someone attacks, the attacker declares what body part he is attacking, then rolls:
BAB + Strength or Dex + any other modifiers (high ground, Wep. Focus, etc.)

The defender rolls:
BAB + Dex + Con + any other modifiers (Dodge, Mobility, etc.)

The difference between the attack and the defense is called "the spread". It can be positive (if the attacker's roll was larger) or negative (if the defender's roll was larger)

If the attacker wins:

Spread Effect

0-4 Close calls: Minor scrapes, bruises, and generally annoying things that will sting later, but have no numeric effect.
5-9 One wound: A good stab to the forearm, a cracked bone, etc.
10-14 Two Wounds: Two stabs to the arm, a very broken bone, really damaged joint, etc.
15-19 Three Wounds: The limb is useless. Shattered bones, flayed muscle, severe blood loss.
20+ Four Wounds: For a limb or head, it's gone, or at least shred to ribbons. For the torso, it's automatic death.

If the defender wins:

Spread Effect

-4 to 0 Close calls: Attacker missed, but they didn't lose their balance or anything.
-9 to -5 Oops: Attacker missed, and the defender can use this to his advantage in some way. Maybe perform a simple action without fear of an attack.
-14 to -10 Ah, crap: Attacker missed, and really messed up. Defender may attempt to trip, disarm, bull rush, or grapple the attacker without the possibility of a return attack if it fails.
-19 to -15 Oh, hell: Attacker missed, and the defender gets any of the special attacks listed above, with a +4 bonus, or an AoO.
-20 & down ****: Attacker missed, and the defender can do even more. Haven't decided what, yet.

Armour gives the defender bonuses to their defense roll. What the exact bonus is depends on the attack type: piercing, slashing, or crushing.
Piercing Slashing Crushing
Naked/Clot 0 0 0
Leather 2 1 2
Std. Leather 2 2 3
Chain 3 5 3
Scale 2 4 7
Plate 5 10 4

As you may have already guessed, this basically translates to armour soaking up wounds. Plate will soak up 2 wounds worth of slashing damage, or one piercing wound, every time. Chain will soak up one. All the others work out to some "percentage" of a wound, even though they will in practice only fully prevent a wound, or not.

These armour stats were made by looking at Wikipedia and using my judgement. If you have reason to think that an armour should have different numbers, let me know! It's still very mutable, at this point.

Obviously, weapons don't always fall nicely into the slashing, piercing, and crushing categories. A lot of this depends on how you use it. For instance, a short sword is designed to be used as a piercing weapon, but you could try slashing with it, if you want, with a penalty to your attack. The longsword can switch between the two, pretty easily. The greatsword is a mix of slashing and crushing, so it averages the two for whatever armour it's attacking.

There's still the same max Dex bonus to your defense roll, just like there's a max Dex bonus to your AC under standard d20.

Sneak attack: For every die of sneak attack damage you purchase, lower the spread needed to deal a wound by one. This cannot get you wounds on a negative spread, but can eventually give you a wound on a spread of 0 (five dice), or two wounds on a spread of 0 (10 dice).

Weapon Specialization: Lower the spread needed to deal a wound with the chosen weapon by one.

Some ramifications of this system:
-If you've got tough skin and bones, you can shrug off blows that a wimp might scream at.

-If you're nimble enough, armour will only slow you down. So don't wear it.

-If you're clumsy enough, armour can only help. Well, except for swimming, climbing, etc.

-If you train at avoiding blows, you'll quickly be better at avoiding them than a peasant wearing full plate.

-If your opponent is wearing full plate, use a mace or a greatsword.

-If your opponent is wearing scale, use a sword

-Arrows are good against anything. Except for when they have cover. Or are next to you. Or grappling you.

-If you're holding a longsword, and your opponent has scale mail, you might want to try slipping the tip into a weak spot. It'll be difficult, but if you do, you'll do well.

-It doesn't matter if you're owned with a longsword or owned with a dagger, you're still owned.

-It doesn't matter if you're owned with a refrigerator or owned with a pencil, you're still owned.

I'm still kicking around how to fit magic into this. Keep in mind that I'm using the Elements of Magic system, which puts a spin on how magic works. Since the vast majority of damaging effects in the system are just elements, I could assign piercing/slashing/crushing categories to the different elements, and make them simple attacks. A magical attack would then be your Dex + how much MP you put into "attacking".

Also, I think it's obvious that the hit location system needs some work. I'd like my players to be able to mix an match armour. Ex. a breastplate, scale greaves, and a chain mail head covering. However, I don't have a good system in mind for how attacking different locations will affect the roll, or if there's the possibility of hitting another body part on a miss. I'd be good to give the defender the option of throwing up an arm to take a blow heading for his head or chest.

Lastly, I think that the options for the defender if the attacker fails may need some sprucing up.


So, thoughts? I hope that this isn't too confusingly presented.
 

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ender_wiggin

First Post
I've only had the time to take a cursory look, but from what I saw, here is my critique:

Be aware that you are sacrificing ease for realism. You seem to be interested in makingyour system more precise, so you know exactly where a specific person is hurting, and I suppose it works at the expense of a disproportionate amount of paperwork. I can't judge your ability to handle all this data in the middle of a fight, but I assure you with absolute certainty it will be many times harder that of rules-as-written d20.

Trust me, I've been down this path before. It didn't work out for me because it was just so immensely tedious. It may work out for you, but you should definately be aware of what you're sacrificing here.
 


Eltern

First Post
ender_wiggin said:
Be aware that you are sacrificing ease for realism. You seem to be interested in makingyour system more precise, so you know exactly where a specific person is hurting, and I suppose it works at the expense of a disproportionate amount of paperwork. I can't judge your ability to handle all this data in the middle of a fight, but I assure you with absolute certainty it will be many times harder that of rules-as-written d20.

Admittedly, I haven't run this yet. And, yes, there are several numbers to keep track of that weren't there before. However, the entire mechanic is literally one roll versus another roll. As a defender, you need to know three defense rolls: versus piercing, versus slashing, and versus crushing. As the attacker, you need to know one. While calculating them is more paperwork than previously exisited, rolling them ought to be easy.

I can't say that the time taken in combat will be -less- than normal d20, but I have difficulty seeing how the time to handle the data will be significantly more.

Spread = Roll 1 - Roll 2. Fin.

Of course, there isn't subtraction in much of D&D, so maybe that will eat up more time than I'm estimating.
 

ender_wiggin

First Post
You'll just have to try it out and see. I'm not really interested in delving into an argument on how much longer these numbers are going to take, b/c it probably varies DM to DM anyway.

I just know I've tried doing things like this before and it really didn't work out -- so I came up with something better. Abstraction over precison.
 

SpiralBound

Explorer
I was only mildly interested in this proposed system, but after reading Ender Wiggen's well-meaning "It's more trouble than it's worth" style of comments, I'm now really interested to run some comparison battles to compare it to the vanilla D20 combat system, just to see how it does become complicated! :D Note, I'm not taking sides here, I'm just intrigued to see if it does or doesn't become more tedious/complicated/slower/etc and if so then by how much.

Oh, and in the OP's post, in the part that reads:
The defender rolls:
BAB + Dex + Con + any other modifiers (Dodge, Mobility, etc.)
Shouldn't that be "BDB + Dex + Con ...."? If not, then just when does the "Base Defense Bonus" get used?

If Eltern is interested, in a few days from now I may be able to get a few people together to test this system. I can try out various hit location methods, try a bunch of combinations of armors, weapons, sit. mods., char. stats, etc. and see how it plays out. Also, prompted by Ender Wiggen, I'll also run some of them using the RAW rules and compare issues of time, usability, complexity (of usage and understanding) and any other factors you'd care for me to compare against. Interested? Any suggestions or requests for testing purposes?
 

Eltern

First Post
Yes, that's supposed to be BDB. :)

I appreciate you testing it out :) Understand that these groups are designed with the purpose of being rather simple, intuitive, and promoting narration. So, I would suggest running one battle with a set of characters under d20, then running the exact same battle with this system. You may want to keep the same die rolls for each run, but that may not be necessary.

I think this system will succeed at its goals if 1. it is not more complicated/time consuming than normal d20 and 2. it paints a clear picture of what's happening.

Now, understand that a significant amount of GM leeway is built into this system in describing the specifics, but there is still a lot more guidance than in standard d20. For instance, a spread of 13 to an attack to the arm gives "two wounds". If this were an arrow attack, I might say that the arrow literally hit twice, going through the forearm and then through the bicep. Ouch. Alternatively, I could say that arrow simply hit a particularly important location, the elbow. Either way, the ramifications are pretty similar, but the exact description is still up to the DM. Here are some possibilities for those ramifications. I realize this further complicates things, of course :p

Wounds Head
1 -2 Spot/Listen
2 Unconcious (Concentration check to stay up?)
3 Death

Arms and Legs
-1 Attacks with that limb, -2 Grapple, -1 to Physical Skills
-2 attacks with that limb,-4 Grapple,-2 to Physical Skills
Can't use it, start bleeding out (will go unconcious eventually from blood loss. Concentration check to stay up?)

Total Wounds to Legs
2 Speed minus 5
4 Speed halved
5 Speed quartered

Torso
-1 to Physical Skills
-2 to Physical Skills
Unconcious (Concentration check to stay up?)
Death

A couple other, house keeping things:

I would say not throwing magic into the system would be the best for trying this out. Just straight fighters and rogues would be best. However, if you're going to use magic, Cure Light, Moderate, Serious, and Critical wounds might cure 1, 2, 3, and 4 wounds, respectively. This can't help someone who's already dead (3 to head or 4 to torso). This does mean that a Cure Critical can really bounce someone back. Since I use the Elements of Magic system, I'm not going to give this a lot of thought. If you're using EoM, I think "2 dice" healing one wound ought to work well.

I recognize that there are more armors than just the ones I listed in the PHB. One of the critical differences in how armor works between this system and normal d20 is that different hit locations could have different armors (ie. Breastplate with scale greaves). I was trying to present a system where armor is a function of material, not location. So, d20 full plate is just plate at all hit locations, hide is just leather everywhere, etc.

Obviously, if you're wanting to try anything with mixing and matching armors, you're talking mixing and matching armor check penalties, speed, weight, and max dex. I'll wait until your results before I venture to create a system like that :)

I'm interested to see how the sneak attack/weapon specialization mechanic works out. It seems to be virtually nothing early on, and then possibly broken later. But then, if you're good at sneaking up on people and stabbing them in the chest, I would hope you kill people easily.

One thing I see going wrong with this system is that people will just target the head and torso, and ignore attacking the legs or arms. There are a few ways to alter this. First, make the vast majority of your armor check penalty be determined by what's on your limbs. This will encourage characters to have less armor on their limbs, making them easier to attack than the torso and the head.

Secondly, I would like there to be some mechanic for the defender to throw up an arm to take a blow, in lieu of getting a hit to the face or chest. I'm still kicking around how to do this, and here are some suggestions from players:

1. As long as you roll over 10 on your defense roll, you may choose to throw up your arm to take a blow.
2. Calculate the spread without factoring in armor. If it's 10 or under, you can throw up an arm. Then calculate armor.
3. The defender rolls first. Based on their roll, they can choose whether or not to throw up an arm. Then the attacker rolls (I kind of like that one).

SOOO :D I'm sure that gives you enough to think about, SpiralBound. Let me know what you cook up.
 

XO

First Post
Hmmmmmmmm

You could do C&S (Chivalry & Sorcery)..... :cool:

Seriously, if you want a distribution of points per location based on total, check out Runequest (at least in its earlier iterations, such as 2nd Edition).

Some good ideas.
 

Kisanji Arael

First Post
Wow, I really like this. I would be way too afraid to play in a game with this system in place, but I still really like it. My questions:

Should legs really have the same HP as arms? When I took Tai-Chi a couple of years ago, my teacher told me aout her master, who was working in a sheet metal factory. He had been doing Tai-Chi for most of his life and always sat one-legged at work, without a chair. One day the saw-blade came off the rack and hit his leg. It... uhh, barely broke the skin. You might want to make heads and arms 3, legs 4, and torsos 5.

Which leads to my second question:
2nd: how does DR affect this?

3rd: Bucklers can defend one arm, shields defend both?

And 4th: Vorpal weaponry?

Oh, and a suggestion-

-20 and down: "I've fallen and I can't get up" attacker goes prone, and can immediately be hit by a coup de grace, sneak attack, or any of the above at +8.
 

Eltern

First Post
Kisanji Arael said:
Should legs really have the same HP as arms? When I took Tai-Chi a couple of years ago, my teacher told me aout her master, who was working in a sheet metal factory. He had been doing Tai-Chi for most of his life and always sat one-legged at work, without a chair.

Obviously, the answer here is that her master was a badass. You're saying he did a one-legged wall sit, without the wall, for the entirety of the work day? That's crazyinsaneawesome.

However, your point is still valid. In general, people's legs are bigger/tougher than their arms. But I never really got the impression that they were -that- much tougher. One option is simply to leave it as it is, and say the difference is too small. Another option is to get a friend and a knife, and start stabbing him/her in various places to find out what a perfectly realistic number of wounds is :D I think we'll find that the head really ought to have only two or maybe even one wounds before death.

So, yes, the wounds slots might be a little too broad. Let's see what SpiralBound finds out.

"2nd: how does DR affect this?"
+1 to Defense bonus, I would think. It's just like having tough skin, like a high constitution.

3rd: Bucklers can defend one arm, shields defend both?
I really don't see a particular reason to treat bucklers different than other shields, since they are basically all pieces of material strapped to your arm. It seems that shields fit well with the "throw up your arm" mechanic, since if you have a shield on that arm, you're always going to want to throw it up.

This makes the primary difference between sheilds material, not size. One way to make shield size matter would be to have the "throw up your arm" mechanic be aided by larger shields. For instance, if you have to make at least a 15 on your defense check to throw up an arm, maybe having a buckler would lower that number to 13, a small shield to 10, a large one to 8, and a tower to 6. Or something like that.

"And 4th: Vorpal weaponry?"
Plus one wound whenever you make a successful attack? This doesn't really come up much in my game, since the players are about ~7th level (with the Buy the Numbers system) and have seen -one- magic item. And it wasn't a weapon.

"-20 and down: "I've fallen and I can't get up" attacker goes prone, and can immediately be hit by a coup de grace, sneak attack, or any of the above at +8."
I would be more inclined to drop the coup de grace, sneak attack, and prone, and just say an AoO at +5 (or larger?) and any of the above special attacks at +8 (or larger?). The reason being that the defender might rather push the attacker off a cliff than knock him prone, so he could choose to bull rush instead of trip.

Also, the coup de grace doesn't really have a place in this system, since it's just an attack against someone who doesn't get a defense roll. This automatically makes the spread huge, and will result in a lot of wounds. But maybe I'm imagining this incorrectly, and having a coup de grace mechanic will be important.
 

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